Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[gvl]

I'd expect psychological effects to be fairly subtle. This is not at all subtle.

Physical effects are normally subtle, psychological can be pretty wild until you do a controlled experiment.

 

[Deleted member 72099]

Yeah, overall the Modi's fine, just a little soft in general and in bass transients when compared to vinyl. I was just hoping to find something to make those small improvements. Listening to the Topping is like looking at a television at Best Buy where they have it turned up to "flame mode".

 

[Deleted member 72099]

I would record the outputs of both with the same song and compare them with Deltawave to be sure.

If I was hearing something subtle, I would resort to technical analysis. This is not subtle. The Modi+ is subtly softer than vinyl. The Topping is a (non subtle) mess. I can play my acoustic guitar next to the system playing a recorded acoustic, with the Modi in it, and it's in the ballpark. The system has less detail and attack, but it does a decent job. With the Topping, it gives the illusion of more detail and attack of live due to overemphasized upper mids and I'm not sure what else. Definitely unnatural.

 

[Sokel]

If I was hearing something subtle, I would resort to technical analysis. This is not subtle. The Modi+ is subtly softer than vinyl. The Topping is a (non subtle) mess. I can play my acoustic guitar next to the system playing a recorded acoustic, with the Modi in it, and it's in the ballpark. The system has less detail and attack, but it does a decent job. With the Topping, it gives the illusion of more detail and attack of live due to overemphasized upper mids and I'm not sure what else. Definitely unnatural.

Wouldn't you like to know exactly the differences?
If you record a small song with both of them and upload it I can do it for you.
Just make sure you record it at the same level,better with a loopback if you have an interface (I saw you play so must have some around) .

 

[Deleted member 72099]

having a few weird issues with this thing myself (with it being fed coax from a minidsp flex digital), can't really tell much atm tho, atl least until i'm able to reproduce them in a controlled manner

I completely understand wanting to approach problems in as logical and controlled manner as possible. And, I would perform more detailed tests if this were subtle. It is not. It's effect, depending on the recording, goes from mildly annoying to virtually unlistenable. But, if others are using this unit and hearing only subtle differences, then I can only assume mine is somehow defective. Guess it's time to start shopping again.

 

[gvl]

But, if others are using this unit and hearing only subtle differences, then I can only assume mine is somehow defective.

You need to remove bias and assess the differences you actually hear. If you’re unwilling to do that you’re likely asking for help on a wrong forum.

 

[sonitus mirus]

I completely understand wanting to approach problems in as logical and controlled manner as possible. And, I would perform more detailed tests if this were subtle. It is not. It's effect, depending on the recording, goes from mildly annoying to virtually unlistenable. But, if others are using this unit and hearing only subtle differences, then I can only assume mine is somehow defective. Guess it's time to start shopping again.

Why did you even bother to ask anyone about it? The Topping DAC should not sound any different than any other modern DAC unless it is configured or used in some pathological setup or it is broken.

 

[Deleted member 72099]

Wouldn't you like to know exactly the differences?
If you record a small song with both of them and upload it I can do it for you.
Just make sure you record it at the same level,better with a loopback if you have an interface (I saw you play so must have some around) .

Actually, no. Again, I would if it was subtle. But to use an analogy, if I was having a sharp pain in my chest and the doctor asked me to describe the pain on a scale of 1 to 10 and insisted on a scale with a resolution to the nearest 1%, I'd find another doctor. Bottom line, the Modi+ is a cheap DAC with subtle shortcomings. The Topping is a bit more expensive and basically ruins the system. Trying to determine by exactly how much is wasted effort.

 

[Deleted member 72099]

You need to remove bias and assess the differences you actually hear. If you’re unwilling to do that you’re likely asking for help on a wrong forum.

I'm not sure you are reading what I'm writing. I'm telling you exactly what I hear. And, the tests I'm performing are about as simple as it gets. Listen to music with the Modi+ in the system. Shut the system down and swap the Topping in and listen to the same music. Repeat. Nothing changes but the DAC. If the differences were subtle, I'd worry about listening level matches etc., but they are not subtle. I don't worry about level matching when I listen the Kenwood compact system in my garage vs my main system, I can hear the difference. I've never been a fan of subjective reviewers, but if you need to carefully test painfully obvious audible differences, then yes I'm in the wrong forum. I listen to (and play) music, not stats.

 

[gvl]

I'm not sure you are reading what I'm writing. I'm telling you exactly what I hear.

I don’t trust what I hear, why should I trust someone random’s hearing claims on the Internet? There’s someone else in another thread who claims he can hear differences between 320kbps mp3 and CD, when played on a tablet, should I believe in it? You need to back up your claims with proper listening tests to be taken seriously, that is unsighted and level matched. If you do them and can pick up the differences you either have golden ears or your DAC is indeed somehow broken. Nothing suggests these devices should sound as different as you describe, they are simple DACs taking bits to similar DAC chips and then to a couple of opamps. Measurements also suggest there shouldn’t be readily audible difference between the two.

 

[Deleted member 72099]

Why did you even bother to ask anyone about it? The Topping DAC should not sound any different than any other modern DAC unless it is configured or used in some pathological setup or it is broken.

I asked because I couldn't comprehend the differences I was hearing. I expected subtle at best. Made no sense to me. Curious to see if anyone else had a similar experience or if there was some setting in a menu/submenu I had missed. Apparently, I got one that is somehow defective. My thanks to all that made an honest effort to help. But to those that can't believe anything without a detailed test suite, to quote Bob Dylan, "I don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows". ;-)

 

[threni]

I asked because I couldn't comprehend the differences I was hearing. I expected subtle at best. Made no sense to me. Curious to see if anyone else had a similar experience or if there was some setting in a menu/submenu I had missed. Apparently, I got one that is somehow defective. My thanks to all that made an honest effort to help. But to those that can't believe anything without a detailed test suite, to quote Bob Dylan, "I don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows". ;-)

He also said "Don't follow leaders, use a voltmeter".

 

[Deleted member 72099]

I don’t trust what I hear, why should I trust someone random’s hearing claims on the Internet? There’s someone else in another thread who claims he can hear differences between 320kbps mp3 and CD, when played on a tablet, should I believe in it? You need to back up your claims with proper listening tests to be taken seriously, that is unsighted and level matched. If you do them and can pick up the differences you either have golden ears or your DAC is indeed somehow broken. Nothing suggests these devices should sound as different as you describe, they are simple DACs taking bits to similar DAC chips and then to a couple of opamps. Measurements also suggest there shouldn’t be readily audible difference between the two.

I am well aware of the pixie dust factor. I never expect decent electronics to make much difference. But, as I've stated many times previously, there is nothing subtle about this. Additionally, I've given my system specs (nothing special but beats a tablet) and the fact that is non-subtle, and in the midrange, not some sub or infrasonic fairy dust. The substitution of DACs changes the system from fairly decent to something I'd walk away from at Walmart. Additionally, I've never made any golden-ears claim. Actually, I'm well into the old-ears range so they're probably more like lead, but they're the same ears I use on both DACs, from the same listening position. My only conclusion is that I got a defective one.

As far as not trusting what you hear. If you trust measurements over what you hear, that's pretty much in the same realm as folks who claim they hear major improvements from "breaking-in" $10K speaker cables, just the opposite side of the coin.

I have nothing more to add.
Bye.

 

[Deleted member 72099]

He also said "Don't follow leaders, use a voltmeter".

Doesn't sound like Bob, but OK.

 

[DMill]

The only way to know is to test the unit. It certainly could be defective. If you are hearing a jarring difference between that and the Modi something is likely wrong with the Topping. Or Modi. I have a Modi and it may not be SOTA, but it does the job and is transparent.

 

[gvl]

But, as I've stated many times previously, there is nothing subtle about this.

I went through this numerous times, you get a new DAC and sounds better/worse in non subtle ways until you subject yourself to an unsighted test and all differences suddenly disappear.

 

[Sokel]

Actually, no. Again, I would if it was subtle. But to use an analogy, if I was having a sharp pain in my chest and the doctor asked me to describe the pain on a scale of 1 to 10 and insisted on a scale with a resolution to the nearest 1%, I'd find another doctor. Bottom line, the Modi+ is a cheap DAC with subtle shortcomings. The Topping is a bit more expensive and basically ruins the system. Trying to determine by exactly how much is wasted effort.

I insist of measuring based on another thread here were after all the bias talk turned out the the person reporting the issues was right (it was with another device where probably a setting was messing things up)
But he did make couple of recordings where I compared with the right tool and the difference was there right away.

It will also be way easier to get a replacement or refund based on the evidence.

 

[DMill]

I went through this numerous times, you get a new DAC and sounds better/worse in non subtle ways until you subject yourself to an unsighted test and all differences suddenly disappear.

its good advice, but there should not be a big shift in sound unless something is not hooked up correctly or the Topping unit is defective. Personally, I would not have made this “upgrade”. But based on specs I suppose the Topping might be better and maybe audibly better?

 

[gvl]

its good advice, but there should not be a big shift in sound unless something is not hooked up correctly or the Topping unit is defective. Personally, I would not have made this “upgrade”. But based on specs I suppose the Topping might be better and maybe audibly better?

It’s doubtful. If there are true audible differences it must be the device is out of spec or external reasons as you say. The OP was given a couple of options how to proceed to get to a better understanding of the situation but he refused, to his credit politely.

 

[Deleted member 72099]

The only way to know is to test the unit. It certainly could be defective. If you are hearing a jarring difference between that and the Modi something is likely wrong with the Topping. Or Modi. I have a Modi and it may not be SOTA, but it does the job and is transparent.

As I mentioned somewhere here, with the Modi in the system, they system playing an acoustic guitar, sounds in the ballpark to me playing (the same model) acoustic next to it. The modi's got a bit less dynamics and the tones a bit different, but in the ballpark. The Topping sounds shrill and almost electric.
With a recording of an electric overdriven through a tube amp, on the Modi that's what it sounds like. Is it perfect? I'm sure it's not but it's a decent representation of what I've heard live. Substitute the Topping and it sounds more like an electric being played through a modeling amp.
I'm guessing the Modi's OK. I'm generally happy with the Modi. I was just trying to get one step closer to reality and ended up going 5 steps backwards.