Tube vs Solid State Amplifiers

[cjm2077]

How could any dedicated tuber resist this fine $3K Meixing Mind Da push-pull 5x70wpc channel KT-90 AV amp?

View attachment 50073

Also doubles as a 500W space heater!

 

[dped90]

Has Amir ever reviewed AND listened to a well designed and built tube preamp? Especially one making the best use of the 6SN7 tube?

And by listening I mean using it to drive both his favorite power amp and speakers.

If Amir would grant the audio community only one such review I'd hope it would be Roy Mottram's Aikido SP14, with the resistor and cap upgrades. http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm

However Amir may regard tube preamps and power amps in general, even those designed this well, generating gobs of 3rd and/or second harmonic distortion, consider this situation: My friend Pierre designed and built these high efficiency horn speakers; see posts 15, 266, 15, 276.

Beyond the Ariel

Hi Lynn Olson, thank you for the explanation in your post. If I understand correctly your other posts, you plan to use a passive cross-over. Should its resistance not be added to that of the output resistance of the amplifier and the conductors? I think that apart from that, I have all the...

www.diyaudio.com

Pierre also designed and built an all solid-state MOSFET power amp to drive these speakers. I believe that at one time he drove the power amp with a solid state line stage, but was less than impressed with the sound. Then he built his own version of John Broskie's Aikido line stage and revision.

https://glass-ware.stores.turbify.net/ainost.html

New Aikido Stereo Noval PCB & CCA

I don't know if Amir or anyone here have reviewed any of Broskie's Glassware line stages, but Pierre does nothing but rave about all aspects of sound quality with this tube line stage driving his system. But he raves even hotter about the Don Sachs DS2 preamp I acquired last month. Recall here where Don loved the sound of the SP14 so much that he designed his own version/ http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm

Note that the SP14 is available as a kit or assembled.

Pierre's DAC https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...may-probably-the-best-discrete-r2r-dac.10161/

But what's probably most important to consider is this: As Amir says during the first 60 secondss of this great tutorial

, nothing determines the degree of sound quality more than the speakers. And in addition to high resolution TAD 15" woofers, Pierre's two-way passively crossed speakers use the Radian 745neoBe beryllium compression drivers.
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 745neoBepb-1.htm Like electrostatic speakers, beryllium drivers are probably the least tolerant of poorly mastered recordings, system noise, less than excellent frequency odd-harmonic distortion products than any other kind of diaphragm material. And yet Pierre reports basking in sonic heaven from SACDs and high quality vinyl largely due to this 6SN7 tube preamp, and which he may have built for less than $1000. in parts.

Thanks to Amir's videos I have certainly gained a far better understanding of several important audio measurement concepts and, the procedures for doing-or at least observing and evaluating-these measurements in the most practical ways.

I am equally grateful for when some of those classic myths are dispelled during these sessions.
But as is often with his DAC and other hardware reviews, Amir further validates his findings by doing extensive listening tests. And so I await his review of either

https://glass-ware.stores.turbify.net/ainost.html

New Aikido Stereo Noval PCB & CCA

or http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm

 

[MaxwellsEq]

If (with his agreement) you purchase and ship these products to Amir, he will no doubt add them to the testing queue.

 

[Sal1950]

However Amir may regard tube preamps and power amps in general, even those designed this well, generating gobs of 3rd and/or second harmonic distortion, consider this situation: My friend Pierre designed and built these high efficiency horn speakers; see posts 15, 266, 15, 276.

This sentence confuses me, are you granting that this preamp does make gobs of 3rd and/or second harmonic distortion?
If so why would you desire such a review? The measurements would only support your claims and no matter what the speaker, the listeners preference would guide his reaction to the added distortion of it's sound.

 

[SIY]

Has Amir ever reviewed AND listened to a well designed and built tube preamp? Especially one making the best use of the 6SN7 tube?

And by listening I mean using it to drive both his favorite power amp and speakers.

If Amir would grant the audio community only one such review I'd hope it would be Roy Mottram's Aikido SP14, with the resistor and cap upgrades. http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm

However Amir may regard tube preamps and power amps in general, even those designed this well, generating gobs of 3rd and/or second harmonic distortion, consider this situation: My friend Pierre designed and built these high efficiency horn speakers; see posts 15, 266, 15, 276.

Beyond the Ariel

Hi Lynn Olson, thank you for the explanation in your post. If I understand correctly your other posts, you plan to use a passive cross-over. Should its resistance not be added to that of the output resistance of the amplifier and the conductors? I think that apart from that, I have all the...

www.diyaudio.com

Pierre also designed and built an all solid-state MOSFET power amp to drive these speakers. I believe that at one time he drove the power amp with a solid state line stage, but was less than impressed with the sound. Then he built his own version of John Broskie's Aikido line stage and revision.

https://glass-ware.stores.turbify.net/ainost.html

New Aikido Stereo Noval PCB & CCA

I don't know if Amir or anyone here have reviewed any of Broskie's Glassware line stages, but Pierre does nothing but rave about all aspects of sound quality with this tube line stage driving his system. But he raves even hotter about the Don Sachs DS2 preamp I acquired last month. Recall here where Don loved the sound of the SP14 so much that he designed his own version/ http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm

Note that the SP14 is available as a kit or assembled.

Pierre's DAC https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...may-probably-the-best-discrete-r2r-dac.10161/

But what's probably most important to consider is this: As Amir says during the first 60 secondss of this great tutorial

, nothing determines the degree of sound quality more than the speakers. And in addition to high resolution TAD 15" woofers, Pierre's two-way passively crossed speakers use the Radian 745neoBe beryllium compression drivers.
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 745neoBepb-1.htm Like electrostatic speakers, beryllium drivers are probably the least tolerant of poorly mastered recordings, system noise, less than excellent frequency odd-harmonic distortion products than any other kind of diaphragm material. And yet Pierre reports basking in sonic heaven from SACDs and high quality vinyl largely due to this 6SN7 tube preamp, and which he may have built for less than $1000. in parts.

Thanks to Amir's videos I have certainly gained a far better understanding of several important audio measurement concepts and, the procedures for doing-or at least observing and evaluating-these measurements in the most practical ways.

I am equally grateful for when some of those classic myths are dispelled during these sessions.
But as is often with his DAC and other hardware reviews, Amir further validates his findings by doing extensive listening tests. And so I await his review of either

https://glass-ware.stores.turbify.net/ainost.html

New Aikido Stereo Noval PCB & CCA

or http://www.tubes4hifi.com/SP14.htm

I'm extremely familiar with the Aikido preamps (John Broskie is an old friend of mine) and have built, used, and published some measurements on them. They actually do not have "gobs" of 2nd and 3rd harmonic, the design is a reasonably good one with distortion and noise being below the level where human ears are likely detect it. So they end up sounding no different than any other reasonably good preamp. He documents the builds well and sells very nice PCBs to ease the construction.

But the idea that they have any kind of "sound" is ludicrous. If you want to make that claim, it only has validity if you have done listening tests with proper controls (ears only).

 

[dped90]

This sentence confuses me, are you granting that this preamp does make gobs of 3rd and/or second harmonic distortion?
If so why would you desire such a review? The measurements would only support your claims and no matter what the speaker, the listeners preference would guide his reaction to the added distortion of it's sound.

I made this admission assuming that Amir's likely well aware that even the best designed tube amps and preamps typically produce far more measurable distortion than solid state ones. But given their immense popularity among audiophile and DIY audio community, is that alone a reason not to review and run listening tests on them? Had I Amir's know-how, time and hardware I'd certainly be too curious not to want put something like the SP14 on the test bench and run listening session to find out what all the fuss is about.

 

[anmpr1]

I'm extremely familiar with the Aikido preamps (John Broskie is an old friend of mine) and have built, used, and published some measurements on them. They actually do not have "gobs" of 2nd and 3rd harmonic, the design is a reasonably good one with distortion and noise being below the level where human ears are likely detect it. So they end up sounding no different than any other reasonably good preamp. He documents the builds well and sells very nice PCBs to ease the construction.

But the idea that they have any kind of "sound" is ludicrous. If you want to make that claim, it only has validity if you have done listening tests with proper controls (ears only).

I have a home made Akido based preamp (12AX7 line stage) with 12AY7 phono stage (featuring a JFET input stage for lower noise), and SS rectification. Built into a Dyna PAS box. Alps pots and so forth. It does the job, but I don't use it much anymore. Not because of any magical 'sound quality'-- magic that I can't reliably distinguish from anything else, I admit. But because a DAC3 HGC (and outboard Project phono box) integrates better into the downstream AHB amp; and of course its easy handling of digital sources along with a remote. However, tube pre features a balance control, which I wish the Benchmark had.

[I do think, however, that in casual listening my two Dyna Mk IV sound 'muddy, loose and tubby' compared to the AHB, so they are back in the closet, keeping PAS company.]

As a kitchen table home project for anyone with an old Dyna in their attic, and time on their hands, I'd recommend that route, or something similar. Why not? If for nothing less than the pride of ownership attained from something personal and hand-made. You can't get that experience with a Benchmark. I wouldn't know how to make a DAC3 HGC, or even if something like it could be made at home, alone. So that part of the equation can't be balanced out.

 

[dped90]

But the idea that they have any kind of "sound" is ludicrous. If you want to make that claim, it only has validity if you have done listening tests with proper controls (ears only).

Would you said that grovegardner's posts 35, 37, 38 offer among the best descriptions of the Aikido?
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...or-less-than-great-sounding-cds.408331/page-2

 

[BDWoody]

But the idea that they have any kind of "sound" is ludicrous. If you want to make that claim, it only has validity if you have done listening tests with proper controls (ears only)

Would you said that grovegardner's posts 35, 37, 38 offer among the best descriptions of the Aikido?
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...or-less-than-great-sounding-cds.408331/page-2

Did you read of any proper controls? I didn't.

 

[SIY]

Would you said that grovegardner's posts 35, 37, 38 offer among the best descriptions of the Aikido?
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...or-less-than-great-sounding-cds.408331/page-2

No. It reads like nonsense.

 

[dped90]

Did you read of any proper controls? I didn't.

Controls meaning, for example, comparative listening tests with otherwise well designed commercial and DIY solid state and/or tube amps?

 

[SIY]

Controls meaning, for example, comparative listening tests with otherwise well designed commercial and DIY solid state and/or tube amps?

No. Controls means ears only. No peeking. Double blind. Matched levels. If you can hear it without peeking, you can hear it.

When peeking is eliminated, electronics with reasonably low noise/distortion and flat frequency response generally cannot be distinguished by sound.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

And all devices performing within their comfortable operating window (no clipping etc).

 

[dped90]

No. Controls means ears only. No peeking. Double blind. Matched levels. If you can hear it without peeking, you can hear it.

When peeking is eliminated, electronics with reasonably low noise/distortion and flat frequency response generally cannot be distinguished by sound.

No, I would think that what BDWoody means by control is a known reference. For example, an amplifier which has been both measured AND ear tested-and then doing the exact same two things to the device under examination. I think the unspoken issue here is that if an amplifier is merely presumed to have relatively higher distortion of any kind and/or less than ruler flat frequency response, than what is deemed a credible reference amplifier, then it is automatically disqualified from being investigated any further-and that the disqualification is held further justifiable simply because subjective judgements, like comparative listening tests are virtually worthless at least if quantitative signal measurements are not carried out. Sadly, this is presumably why, to the best of my knowledge, Amir has yet to conduct reviews on any tube amps or tube line stages.

 

[BDWoody]

No, I would think that what BDWoody means by control is a known reference.

No, @SIY said exactly what I meant.

Sadly, this is presumably why, to the best of my knowledge, Amir has yet to conduct reviews on any tube amps or tube line stages.

Look a little harder.

 

[SIY]

No, I would think that what BDWoody means by control is a known reference. For example, an amplifier which has been both measured AND ear tested-and then doing the exact same two things to the device under examination. I think the unspoken issue here is that if an amplifier is merely presumed to have relatively higher distortion of any kind and/or less than ruler flat frequency response, than what is deemed a credible reference amplifier, then it is automatically disqualified from being investigated any further-and that the disqualification is held further justifiable simply because subjective judgements, like comparative listening tests are virtually worthless at least if quantitative signal measurements are not carried out. Sadly, this is presumably why, to the best of my knowledge, Amir has yet to conduct reviews on any tube amps or tube line stages.

…and ANY valid sonic claim must have those basic controls. Without that, human brains (all human brains!) find all sorts of differences that aren’t real. Ears are truthful, brains are liars.

Ears only. That’s the key to validity.

 

[dped90]

…and ANY valid sonic claim must have those basic controls. Without that, human brains (all human brains!) find all sorts of differences that aren’t real. Ears are truthful, brains are liars.

Ears only. That’s the key to validity.

Indeed, if you're talking about eliminating the risk of bias from both the witness and the researcher-such as during forensic testing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment#In_forensics -then I totally agree. Example? Amir has one or two assistants who alternately feed the same signal to reference amplifier X and test amplifier
Y to Amir's headphones. Amir does not know beforehand or at any point during the listening tests which amp is which, and can therefore only rely on his ears to judge the
sound quality between the X and Y amps.

 

[SIY]

Indeed, if you're talking about eliminating the risk of bias from both the witness and the researcher-such as during forensic testing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment#In_forensics -then I totally agree. Example? Amir has one or two assistants who alternately feed the same signal to reference amplifier X and test amplifier
Y to Amir's headphones. Amir does not know beforehand or at any point during the listening tests which amp is which, and can therefore only rely on his ears to judge the
sound quality between the X and Y amps.

Not just forensics-any sensory testing. I wrote a simple overview of this a few years back (it’s been well known in sensory science for more than a century) and Amir has posted a video outlining controlled methods of doing listening tests.

Do those controls and you’ll find that the Aikido sounds no different than any other decent preamp, tube or otherwise. There’s no real difficulty in making a transparent preamp.

 

[Sal1950]

Do those controls and you’ll find that the Aikido sounds no different than any other decent preamp, tube or otherwise.

That in itself is quite an accomplishment for a tube preamp like this.

 

[SIY]

That in itself is quite an accomplishment for a tube preamp like this.

Not so much. The only issue tube preamps often have is driving low impedances; other than that, for the small voltage swings needed, the designs are easy. You have to do something really special to screw them up, and even tube preamps from the 50s and 60s can perform quite well.