Steve Guttenberg on active speakers

[HiFiSoundFarts]

Steve is stuck in the past as he enjoys tinkering but we really have reached a point where separates are going to quickly become obsolete as the new active speakers can sound so much better for far less money. Even the late Jim Thiel was developing wireless, active speakers and talked about how long interconnects degraded sound quality substantially and having amps as close to the speakers connects was optimal. Steve's argument for obsolescence in active speakers is no different than obsolescence in any audio equipment so that argument is nullified. Besides, if someone bought and really liked the ls50 wireless, they would either keep them for a long time or sell them at a good resale price to upgrade to another more recent active speaker. Steve just doesn't want to let go of the past.

 

[Krunok]

I don't think we can conclude this from an in-room measurement. Way too many variables to know how what we're seeing on this graph relates to what the speaker is outputting.

True - the response from all 3 speakers in the 40Hz-400Hz range is so similar in shape that one can only conclude it is a room playing that. But then, it is like that with most rooms..

 

[Krunok]

The interesting bit is the oscillation of the Duo in the 20-50 Hz range. The Focal and KEFs appear to have more typical frequency responses, where amp and DSP recognize (and respect) the natural low frequency roll-off limitations of the driver/cabinet.

We're talking about several 3-5 dB oscillations, which would likely be audible on a frequency sweep (and may be apparent musically).

I'm pretty sure those aren't audible. What would be audible is a bass guitar solo passing over 62Hz to 82Hz and hitting the -18dB dip.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I doubt it would be anything BUT DSP. In a speaker of that size/configuration, high spl at 20-30 Hz isn't typical al all.

No doubt the low extension is a result of the DSP boosting the bass. What I'm saying though is that there is no way of knowing (1) whether the peaks and troughs are reflected in an anechoic measurements and (2) if they are, whether these would be due to the driver's response or the DSP's.

It wouldn't be the least of my concerns either, as these levels are at or above the threshold of audibility and unlikely to be attenuated by furnishings etc.

I'm not saying the sound itself would fall below thresholds of audibility; I'm saying that our ability to detect resonances in this frequency range is extremely poor. Add a room to the equation and you may as well forget about it.

There's a lot that could be happening here. Hysteresis, chuffing, resonance, or DSP tuning to get an impressive "number" on frequency response.

We can rule out chuffing - the box is sealed. The other possibilities - maybe. But given that we don't even know the acoustic centres of the woofers were in the same location for all 3 measurements (and they almost certainly weren't), there's really nothing we can say about what might be going on here.

 

[Krunok]

No doubt the low extension is a result of the DSP boosting the bass. What I'm saying though is that there is no way of knowing (1) whether the peaks and troughs are reflected in an anechoic measurements and (2) if they are, whether these would be due to the driver's response or the DSP's.

Sure, LF extension of the Duo is certainly work of DSP, but judging by the FR of all 3 speakers I would say they were pretty close to the corners. As the shape of all 3 curves is very similar I would say they have been measured pretty much at the same position. For the same reason (similarity of the curves) I would say peaks and dips are all because of the room.

If I had to put my money how they would rate in the anechoic chamber based on this measurement Focal would be my favorite as it seems to have the calmest curve after 400Hz.

 

[napilopez]

Yes, all those peaks and dips are certainly effects of the room. I've made dozens of measurements with about 10 different speakers so far; they all have the dips and peaks in the same places, ~80 and ~120 hz in particular, and a small one around 52hz. They're about 2 feet from the front and side walls, but giving them an extra foot or two of space does little in the context of the larger room (a long, narrow, open-floorplan apartment).

Honestly, the big dips don't bother me as much as the measurements might suggest (they're audible, but it's not like sound disappears). My greater concern is the wider shallow depression in the bass. I'm sure the dips contribute to that, but the entire region from ~70hz to 300hz is scooped with pretty much every speaker.

Mind you, I do have a sub that mitigates these issues somewhat, but when I'm measuring stereo speakers on their own, this is what I get =]

If I had to put my money how they would rate in the anechoic chamber based on this measurement Focal would be my favorite as it seems to have the calmest curve after 400Hz.

This might be the case on-axis, but the Focal's dispersion isn't as good as the KEFs and they're more finicky about positioning; the measurement I posted was the best one after lots of shifting around, otherwise there tended to be a shallow dip in the crossover region. I did prefer the Focals, but one would hope a $12,000 speaker would outdo a $2,000 one =]

 

[GrimSurfer]

Yes, all those peaks and dips are certainly effects of the room. I've made dozens of measurements with about 10 different speakers so far; they all have the dips and peaks in the same places, ~80 and ~120 hz in particular, and a small one around 52hz. They're about 2 feet from the front and side walls, but giving them an extra foot or two of space does little in the context of the larger room (a long, narrow, open-floorplan apartment).

The great news in all of this is that you have an excellent acoustic understanding of your space. This will come in handy should you ever decide to do some room treatment.

 

[Cortes]

I like active speakers from professional brands. However, looking at the Hedd Type 20 and its linearizer driver, I realized that some active speakers have potentially a huge problem: software/drivers. If they require special drivers or controllers to operate there is a very, very high risk of not getting updates in a few versions ahead of current Windows/OSX.

I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but most of the audio brands will be kaput in a decade.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

If they require special drivers or controllers to operate there is a very, very high risk of not getting updates in a few versions ahead of current Windows/OSX.
I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but most of the audio brands will be kaput in a decade.

All duly noted.

 

[napilopez]

I like active speakers from professional brands. However, looking at the Hedd Type 20 and its linearizer driver, I realized that some active speakers have potentially a huge problem: software/drivers. If they require special drivers or controllers to operate there is a very, very high risk of not getting updates in a few versions ahead of current Windows/OSX.

I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but most of the audio brands will be kaput in a decade.

While that's a legitimate caveat, I've never heard of a speaker that required special drivers simply to function. Not getting updates is unfortunate, but chances are you'd still be able to use the speakers and whatever special features it has in the long run.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I agree. As long as the inputs are analog, then it should be playable (in less something were to happen to whatever is loaded in flash memory).

I don't think anyone should be under the illusion that companies will spend $s updating software well into the future. Once it's sold, you may get an update or two. After that, the product cycle will be over, the hardware will change, and software updates will cease.

 

[q3cpma]

In the same vein, I've seen a thread on the Genelec forums about noise/hiss in the 8351 that was partially fixed by a fimware upgrade done with the GLM software; software obviously not available on GNU/Linux or *BSD.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I agree. As long as the inputs are analog, then it should be playable (in less something were to happen to whatever is loaded in flash memory).

Sure but, going forward, why would one feed analog to a DSP speaker when all modern sources are digital?

 

[GrimSurfer]

So it will work in the future and not be tied to any particular digital format.

To be clear, allow digital and analog inputs.

 

[DDF]

Steve's argument for obsolescence in active speakers is no different than obsolescence in any audio equipment so that argument is nullified.

Not trying to be an apologist for "colourful" opinion, but he's not talking obsolescence so much as reliability. Speakers (without foam surrounds or ferrofluid) last forever. Amps, not so much. Limitation is the electrolytic capacitors, they hate heat and die. I've replaced them in my sub's amp, my Bryston amp, and my Hypex power supply already. I'm a EE and have estimated working life for electro caps at elevated temps, not pretty. Sticking them in a cabinet with no ventilation will not improve the situation.

What magnifies this several fold are the crap caps that sometimes come from China these days. They took out my Hypex and sub amp.

 

[Krunok]

Honestly, the big dips don't bother me as much as the measurements might suggest (they're audible, but it's not like sound disappears). My greater concern is the wider shallow depression in the bass. I'm sure the dips contribute to that, but the entire region from ~70hz to 300hz is scooped with pretty much every speaker.

I agree, that is concerning but I'm pretty sure that can be corrected with room EQ.

 

[pozz]

Adams and Emotiva, or any monitor that uses an AMT ... the sound of those monitors is generally hyped (boosted in bottom of the low end and highs, which ends up scooping the midrange).

I was travelling for a while. Now that I'm back, here are some measurements made by Sound & Recording of monitors using AMTs. Six units by Adam, and one each by Eve, ESI and HEDD.

 

[Ron Texas]

@pozz going by the numbers which is best?

 

[pozz]

@pozz going by the numbers which is best?

The Adam S3V. Currently around $3k USD.

 

[Ron Texas]

The Adam S3V. Currently around $3k USD.

$3k isn't bad considering it's mid-field and has a nice electronics package built in.