What makes big speakers sound "big"and smaller ones sound "small"?

[Chromatischism]

In my opinion, I think speakers sound "big" when:

1. They can play full range (whether aided by subs or not)
2. The sound can't be obviously pinpointed because the directivity is broad and even without holes and the radiation patterns of all the drivers ends at the same angles
3. The sound quality is reasonably life-like, including use of EQ when necessary (especially to tackle the modal activity)
4. They can play loud with low distortion

When any of these are deficient, the illusion is broken and we detect the speaker.

 

[RobL]

Imo it depends on the specifics, with the caveat that "sounds bigger" is a subjective assessment that I don't know how to reliably correlate with measured response. But I am among those who think that a larger speaker can and often does sound "bigger" than a small speaker.

Eyeballing the speakers in your photo in post 114, I would not automatically classify the line array speaker as "bigger" in this context. I would expect the JBL 4367 or M2 to sound "bigger" than either at the same average SPL.

I hope this isn’t a variation on “Your system isn’t resolving enough…”

 

[Duke]

I hope this isn’t a variation on “Your system isn’t resolving enough…”

I'm confused. Can you explain what you mean?

 

[mhardy6647]

I hope this isn’t a variation on “Your system isn’t resolving enough…”

E.g., your system's not big enough

 

[sigbergaudio]

But.. Have those customers actually listened to a large 3-way with a 12" or 15" woofer? I have a suspicion they might not.

Surely you can get very nice sound from a small pair of speakers with well matched subs. That's not what I'm saying.



I agree with your points and experience. I went from several pairs of slim-line towers with which I integrated different SVS subs and spent an enormous amount of time learning to do this the right way. I tried with one, then two subs, both sealed and last ported. None of which gave me what I wanted in terms of slam and bass performance. Yes, they went deep and it sounded very good. But it lacked the "attack" or the "big sound" I remembered from my teenage years with a pair of PA 2x 15" speakers in my small room.
Moving on to sell my subs and slim-line towers and purchased a pair of Infinity Kappa 7.2. Those did have a slice of what I wanted but with EQ they didn't quite cope with the loud listening sessions and I moved onto a pair of Kappa 8.2 ( 12" woofer) and with those I feel I have settled for the longest time. They can play cleanly well above reasonable levels.
A thing I noted is the tendency to listen louder than usual with those. I think it has to do with the low distortion at high SPL. I have noted the position of the amp attenuators that give me about 86 dbA and Lcpeak >110 dB at 3 m. with full input signal and am well aware of protecting my hearing so those sessions are rare.

Sure they have, we even have a speaker with a 12" ourselves. One notable difference we also have is dedicated midbass drivers, not so common in small speakers (or even large).

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Sure they have, we even have a speaker with a 12" ourselves. One notable difference we also have is dedicated midbass drivers, not so common in small speakers (or even large).

Yes that could be a notable difference.

 

[Duke]

E.g., your system's not big enough

Thanks for explaining.

@RobL's hope is not in vain then. That's not what I was saying.

 

[MattHooper]

Nice analysis!

This one track is where my Revel speakers (two 8" woofers) can barely keep up with those ancient (but maintained) Advents, especially stacked Advents as I was running before buying the Revels. It's not about bass extension--a kick drum doesn't need to go as low as a large timpani or concert bass drum--but about clarity in the lower mid-bass. So, I don't think it can be fixed with subs that are usually crossed over at 60-80 Hz. You'll read that the fundamental of a kick drum is lower than that, but the energy in the sound is coming from harmonic content--that's the content that gives the sound of a kick drum a big punch. Do that punch right and you'll feel the pulse on your skin and not just hear it in your ears.

Exactly!

That's the "power area" I tend to enjoy and which really sucks me in to the sound, rhythm and performance.

I've found that some people feel that adding lower bass (sub frequencies) adds impact to the system, but often I don't find that - if a system is missing that "kick" in the kick drum frequencies adding lower bass can just make things feel even more sluggish.

I think one reason I didn't care for subs with my Thiel speakers in my room is that once I'd evened out the sound with the subs (and room correction) I kept losing that kick-drum area punch and drive that I preferred, which could have been something in the speaker's response and/or the way they interacted with my room. Once the subs were dialed in I could press a button in my crossover that went from "subs in use/crossed over with main speakers" vs taking the subs out and running direct, the speakers full range. I had my son listen, not even telling him what was going on, but just play a bunch of music and pushing the button on and off. He also preferred it without the subs.

I could have kept the subs/crossover/room correction and added an EQ to boost the frequencies I wanted, but in the end that seemed like spending a lot of money, and adding extra gear, to get pretty much what I already liked in just the speakers themselves, so I sold it all.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Nice analysis!

Exactly!

That's the "power area" I tend to enjoy and which really sucks me in to the sound, rhythm and performance.

I've found that some people feel that adding lower bass (sub frequencies) adds impact to the system, but often I don't find that - if a system is missing that "kick" in the kick drum frequencies adding lower bass can just make things feel even more sluggish.

I think one reason I didn't care for subs with my Thiel speakers in my room is that once I'd evened out the sound with the subs (and room correction) I kept losing that kick-drum area punch and drive that I preferred, which could have been something in the speaker's response and/or the way they interacted with my room. Once the subs were dialed in I could press a button in my crossover that went from "subs in use/crossed over with main speakers" vs taking the subs out and running direct, the speakers full range. I had my son listen, not even telling him what was going on, but just play a bunch of music and pushing the button on and off. He also preferred it without the subs.

I could have kept the subs/crossover/room correction and added an EQ to boost the frequencies I wanted, but in the end that seemed like spending a lot of money, and adding extra gear, to get pretty much what I already liked in just the speakers themselves, so I sold it all.

Subs can even make it worse (which sounds like exactly what you experienced), as the sub frequencies overpower the upper bass / lower mids and makes this area sound even weaker. It's pretty common to underestimate the 100-500hz area, and it's often extra weak due to cancellations in-room.

 

[amper42]

Displacement makes a BIG difference. My Revel M105 sounds toothless even at lower volumes when compared directly to the Revel F328Be. Adding an 80Hz crossover with sub to the M105 can help reduce the horrible low end distortion of the 105 - but they still don't have the kick and amazing fullness offered by the F328Be. The bigger the room - the better the F328Be sounds and the more gutless the M105 sounds in a direct comparison. Displacement matters!

 

[ahofer]

Displacement makes a BIG difference. My Revel M105 sounds toothless even at lower volumes when compared directly to the Revel F328Be. Adding an 80Hz crossover with sub to the M105 can help reduce the horrible low end distortion of the 105 - but they still don't have the kick and amazing fullness offered by the F328Be. The bigger the room - the better the F328Be sounds and the more gutless the M105 sounds in a direct comparison. Displacement matters!

I tend to agree. Published measurements are typically nearfield, not at distance, and those would easily reveal the things that make this difference. Compression across the board would do it. Consider a typical compression test like Erin's, on a respectable speaker.

(https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_r5_meta/)

Critics of KEF definitely say they don't fill the room. One possibility is narrower directivity, the other is that these compression effects play a much bigger role on dynamics in the far field, and affect the same low and high end frequencies our hearing is already dropping off (Fletcher-Munson) at lower volumes. I'm sure you have to hit these levels at the driver distance (given a 6db drop per doubling of distance) in order to achieve dynamic range in a large room.

I presume these tests are at Klippel distance or closer.

 

[RobL]

Displacement makes a BIG difference. My Revel M105 sounds toothless even at lower volumes when compared directly to the Revel F328Be. Adding an 80Hz crossover with sub to the M105 can help reduce the horrible low end distortion of the 105 - but they still don't have the kick and amazing fullness offered by the F328Be. The bigger the room - the better the F328Be sounds and the more gutless the M105 sounds in a direct comparison. Displacement matters!

I agree with this but aren’t we really just right back to SPL capability and bass extension? Are the 328Be’s “big” in the definition that Duke would use? (ie. 12”+ drivers with massive motors)
I don’t think my 8361’s fit the definition either even though the bass drivers have 700 watts on tap.
The EV should though…the 12” “subwoofer” unit is really more of a woofer, it crosses over at 200hz and rolls off below 43hz. I imagine it has pretty high sensitivity and a 500w amp that gets it very loud. The array has eight 3.5” full range drivers that also have a 500w amp.

 

[amper42]

I agree with this but aren’t we really just right back to SPL capability and bass extension? Are the 328Be’s “big” in the definition that Duke would use? (ie. 12”+ drivers with massive motors)
I don’t think my 8361’s fit the definition either even though the bass drivers have 700 watts on tap.
The EV should though…the 12” “subwoofer” unit is really more of a woofer, it crosses over at 200hz and rolls off below 43hz. I imagine it has pretty high sensitivity and a 500w amp that gets it very loud. The array has eight 3.5” full range drivers that also have a 500w amp.

The Revel F328Be drivers - Three 8" Ceramic Composite aluminum cones, Midrange 5-1/4" Ceramic Composite aluminum cone, Tweeter - 1" Beryllium dome, with acoustic lens waveguide. Enclosure measures 50.9" H x 13.5" W x 17.6" D. Weight 112.6 lbs.

The Revel M105 drivers - 5.25” Aluminum Cone, 1” Aluminum Tweeter with Acoustic Lens Waveguide. Enclosure measures 14”H, 7.9” W, 9.8” Deep. Weight 16 lbs.

It's obviously not a fair fight!

 

[mhardy6647]

Thanks for explaining.

@RobL's hope is not in vain then. That's not what I was saying.

I didn't intend to imply that you were. I just thought it was an amusing riff on the "not resolving enough" corollary of the Emporer's new clothes.

EDIT:
PS As most of all y'all know -- I am a big loudspeaker kind of fellow.



and I run with a bad crowd

 

[ahofer]

I didn't intend to imply that you were. I just thought it was an amusing riff on the "not resolving enough" corollary of the Emporer's new clothes.

EDIT:
PS As most of all y'all know -- I am a big loudspeaker kind of fellow.



and I run with a bad crowd

View attachment 346026

I assume most of the electronics on those shelves are not in the signal path. Like a museum!

 

[mhardy6647]

I assume most of the electronics on those shelves are not in the signal path. Like a museum!

That is correct. I have this little problem...

EDIT: I actually only posted that particular image (taken by my good friend Nate, builder of the amp I usually actually do use with those big "Frankenaltecs") is that it gives some sense of their -- umm -- bigness. (9 cubic feet or ca. 255 liters). The grey Altec A5s topped with 1505 multicell horns (and 288 drivers, of course) in the other photo I posted are 1) not mine and 2) rather larger.

And I do know some guys with big loudspeakers, too. Not at liberty to divulge too much more, but they dwarf either of the above efforts.


(a slightly less distorted view of the Frankenaltecs as they are today, tucked into corners)

 

[amper42]

I had some speakers like these for stage performances. These are definitely PA grade. They probably blow up that room when jamming at high SPL's. We also built cabinets for 30" EV woofers with dual 10' transmission lines. They could shake windows out of a house. I hooked a signal generator up to one for testing and my Mom came running out of the house and yelling words I never heard from her mouth when all of the windows were vibrating in unison. Crazy days! Some things start rattling just below most peoples threshold of hearing. The effects can be wild. I didn't have a chance to isolate the exact frequency when the colon dances.

 

[montyliam]

My 8010's certainly sound smaller than my 8350's

 

[Sokel]

My 8010's certainly sound smaller than my 8350's

I think Stax headphones are similar in size

(ok,small but crazy good for their designated purpose )

 

[Kvalsvoll]

That makes sense to me.

It just so happens that the 10" woofers I use in my little four-piece subwoofer system have unusually high motor strength (Bl^2/Rdc), to the best of my knowledge surpassed only by a (sadly discontinued) TC Sounds unit, at least among off-the-shelf 10" subwoofer drivers. Alas, "Bl^2/Rdc per dollar" is not a metric that has any traction in the marketplace.

It is of course not Bl alone, if it is linear, there should be no difference between a woofer with Bl 25 or one with Bl 12. They only differ in sensitivity, which just means use more power, and q and roll-off.

But going way back in time, it became apparent that some speakers sound more dynamic and live, while some are just plain boring and sluggish. Then looking at differences, the better tend to have high Bl, low moving mass, moderate excursion. Properties in the opposite direction to what is suitable for a driver intended for subwoofers in not too large boxes.