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HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

Rate this headphone:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 215 62.3%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 60 17.4%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 32 9.3%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 38 11.0%

  • Total voters
    345

Bernard23

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When Amir demolished my main speakers, the Klipsch rp600m, in a review, I also finally decided to register an account and intervene to..... Defend Amir!
The review didn't affect my taste for those speakers, but neither did my measurement accuracy. The measurement says nothing about my tastes, it only tells objective notions about the speakers' performance, why should I be offended? Why should they stop liking me?
On the contrary, being able to relate the measurements to my tastes could help me understand which technical elements I like in the sound.
NB in my personal measurements with a calibrated microphone and rew I was able to personally see the frequency response errors of those speakers. I continue to listen to them with pleasure.
Now, if the subjectivists could grasp this concept, the measurement approach would be much more widely accepted, and importantly useful. I absolutely would also choose with my ears, but I won't pretend that they tell me the truth!
 

srkbear

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The HE 400SE also was phase inverted. No one cared, the DT1770 also b.t.w.

Why is there HD audio ?
Why are there speakers reaching well over 50kHz.

Some folks (not me) think it is important so there is that.
Touting drivers that reach to bat-range frequency responses that no human infant could ever perceive is no different than getting giddy over SMSL’s or Topping’s latest DAC that achieves another 0.02dB bump in SINAD measurements in my view, from a practical standpoint.

But in terms of technological achievement, I think headphone frequency response ranges are far less notable because these quantitative specs say nothing about how well these extremes of frequency production perform qualitatively, and that’s much harder to measure (as well as a pointless endeavor). All sorts of cheapo headphones claim these exorbitantly broad frequency ranges, and nobody other than the most unhinged woo-arbiters are making much of a fuss about it.

But somehow the SINAD war is more engaging for me to follow somehow, audible or not. First the analog vs digital factor must be considered—headphones are by and large analog devices, limited by the laws of physics in terms of what they can do (although purveyors of xMEMs technology might disagree). DACs are nothing more than computers, and even though we’ve long passed the audible threshold of SINAD scores, I find it much more fun to see what our Chinese designer friends can squeeze out of the latest digital technology, audible or not.

Obviously we’re in a bit of a fallow period in terms of audible technological progress, and every new wired headphone that hits the market differs from its predecessors primarily in tuning curves. Given how transformative the last half decade has been for music listeners, I have no doubt that the SOTA in 2074 will be incomprehensible to those of us now, and I like to muse about what that landscape might look like.

I think xMEMs, Spatial Audio and wireless technology are all indicators of what the next revolution will bear. I have no doubt that in the coming century wires will become a thing of the past, stereo will be relegated to Luddite geezers reminiscing of the sounds of yesteryear, and even headphones might be completely replaced by IEMs that offer adjustable tuning that can be user-programmed to conform to individual audiograms and preferences.

Apple is already offering this in their product ecosystem with their AirPods Pro, and I think they may be on to something by de-emphasizing the lossless, hi res obsession over technology that is actually audible—the only hurdle remaining to surpass is our ensconced and somewhat paradoxical belief that unlike DACs, streamers and amps, when it comes to headphones, analog and wired differentiate serious gear from toys.

And as the last generation raised on analog tech passes on, there will be no one left whose brains evolved to hear analog as familiar and comforting—I hope this site is still around to act as a almanac of this evolutionary progress.
 

MacClintock

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There is no such thing as "detail retrieval." This is a made up term by audiophiles for headphones which has no grounding in engineering or science of sound reproduction. It classic lay intuition terminology used by people to claim technical knowledge and value when there is none.
Well, if you ask the "experts" from headphones.com, especially the prankster "GoldenSound", the Truthear Zero Red is not as "resolving" as the Kato and has worse "technicalities" (
at 15:30). And these are professors at the YouTube university, so they must know it!
 

Robbo99999

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I'll wager that in 2074, there will still be a significant minority who will still believe that vinyl is better than digital.
In 2074 I would hope we have full & trouble free personalised HRTF processing in any headphones so that they can mimic any multi channel speaker setup you can imagine with great authenticity, all for minimal cost and trivial or none minimal setup/calibration difficulties.
 

Bernard23

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In 2074 I would hope we have full & trouble free personalised HRTF processing in any headphones so that they can mimic any multi channel speaker setup you can imagine with great authenticity, all for minimal cost and trivial or none minimal setup/calibration difficulties.
Good luck with that. We've known about room acoustics for what? 2000 years at least and we're still stuck with the complicated challenge that is Dirac at best. We'll still be complaining that only half the country has 5g so forget any kind of connected transport. Let's not even think about the energy infrastructure and on device delivery for just getting to the shops....
 

Robbo99999

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Good luck with that. We've known about room acoustics for what? 2000 years at least and we're still stuck with the complicated challenge that is Dirac at best. We'll still be complaining that only half the country has 5g so forget any kind of connected transport. Let's not even think about the energy infrastructure and on device delivery for just getting to the shops....
BAH! Who knows! Just the next bastion in headphones in my mind is being able to emulate almost any multichannel setup accurately, which means mapping your personal HRTF accurately (see Smyth Realiser). I kind of believe that this can be easily possible with enough research and enough cheap technology - these things could potentially get cheaper & easier in the future.
 

Bernard23

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BAH! Who knows! Just the next bastion in headphones in my mind is being able to emulate almost any multichannel setup accurately, which means mapping your personal HRTF accurately (see Smyth Realiser). I kind of believe that this can be easily possible with enough research and enough cheap technology - these things could potentially get cheaper & easier in the future.
Now we are talking. It's absolutely possible with some novel / intelligent sensor tech and AI. The challenge is making the sensor small enough, or if outside of ear (bone etc) sufficiently reliable (repeatable). That's way before we start building a business case. There is research already, but it's not interested in HRTF accuracy.
 

Robbo99999

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Now we are talking. It's absolutely possible with some novel / intelligent sensor tech and AI. The challenge is making the sensor small enough, or if outside of ear (bone etc) sufficiently reliable (repeatable). That's way before we start building a business case. There is research already, but it's not interested in HRTF accuracy.
There'd probably need to be sensors like you mention similar to the ANC headphones we have now, but also visual mapping of the ear & head as accurately as possible to understand & map that whole 3D structure accurately so that HRTF can be accurately captured. At the moment it's done in Smyth Realiser by using in ear mics to calibrate the system, which is an accurate approach, but it's intrusive and takes time & resource, so anything that could be quickly/accurately & easily visually mapped/scanned would be the ideal. But yeah, let's all see how it goes. I'll probably be interested in audio for the next 20+yrs if my ears hold up, let's see what happens!
 
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amirm

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By 2074, we will likely have full synthesis of any music we like. You type what you want and the system will generate it for you. Then we won't have to worry about how something is "recorded." You would just as well be able to change the tonality just as easily. Using a recording will be just as quaint as black and white film to many people...
 

Robbo99999

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By 2074, we will likely have full synthesis of any music we like. You type what you want and the system will generate it for you. Then we won't have to worry about how something is "recorded." You would just as well be able to change the tonality just as easily. Using a recording will be just as quaint as black and white film to many people...
How you mean there Amir? In terms of "generate"? (And why not worry how "recorded")?
 

Galliardist

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By 2074, we will likely have full synthesis of any music we like. You type what you want and the system will generate it for you. Then we won't have to worry about how something is "recorded." You would just as well be able to change the tonality just as easily. Using a recording will be just as quaint as black and white film to many people...
I'll be dead by then and won't see this. And even though I like a lot of electronic music, I still prefer music to be played by these wonderful things called "people".
 

gofishus

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$6000 headphones bested by $22 IEMs. Classic. This is what ASR is all about. Thank you, @amirm!
A headphone is more than just measurements. You're a fool if you think $22 IEMs will sound the same as a Susvara. It's actually crazy how many people will use Amir's findings like an 'end all be all' type of review when he doesn't say anything about the actual sound quality of the headphone. Measurements are nice, but it won't tell you how detailed the sound is, how wide the soundstage is etc so you can't just go off of measurements and assume a $22 IEM will sound better that's just ridiculous
 
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amirm

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he doesn't say anything about the actual sound quality of the headphone.
You didn't bother to read the review, did you... go read it now before stating more falselyties.
 

MayaTlab

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Now we are talking. It's absolutely possible with some novel / intelligent sensor tech and AI. The challenge is making the sensor small enough, or if outside of ear (bone etc) sufficiently reliable (repeatable). That's way before we start building a business case. There is research already, but it's not interested in HRTF accuracy.

Mmm I can think of dozens if not hundreds of articles related to HRTF capture, generation and application to binaural renderers, including for the latter research into preferences and accuracy / precision ? It's all the rage these days.

There'd probably need to be sensors like you mention similar to the ANC headphones we have now, but also visual mapping of the ear & head as accurately as possible to understand & map that whole 3D structure accurately so that HRTF can be accurately captured. At the moment it's done in Smyth Realiser by using in ear mics to calibrate the system, which is an accurate approach, but it's intrusive and takes time & resource, so anything that could be quickly/accurately & easily visually mapped/scanned would be the ideal.

Most tech companies are already doing this to some degree, even if it may remain in embryonic form for now, Apple possibly being at the forefront. You may not necessarily need a perfectly accurate capture of the user's head anatomy to be able to generate an individualised HRTF profile that's good enough to be considered more convincing than a generic one. Among others Apple has a few patents claiming a number of methods to go from the sort of rough "point cloud" like data that you obtain with depth sensors, which will have numerous blind spots (ex : concha) to a more complete mesh of the user's head, before generating an individualised profile. But given the sort of digital avatars they're capable of creating now I am not even certain that the data they capture in the first place is going to remain particularly rough for long.
 

Chagall

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A headphone is more than just measurements. You're a fool if you think $22 IEMs will sound the same as a Susvara. It's actually crazy how many people will use Amir's findings like an 'end all be all' type of review when he doesn't say anything about the actual sound quality of the headphone. Measurements are nice, but it won't tell you how detailed the sound is, how wide the soundstage is etc so you can't just go off of measurements and assume a $22 IEM will sound better that's just ridiculous

Nobody is claiming they will sound the same. But out of the box with no EQ applied a lot of IEMs and other cheaper headphones will be more accurate than Susvara. After EQing, the frequency response of the IEM and the Susvara will be similar, but they won't sound the same.

I'm having a hard time believing that any in-ear will be overall better than any over-ear that isn't completely broken. But this applies to me because I value spatial qualities and a bigger sound, not in-head sound. But more accurate tuning - sure.
 
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Well, if you ask the "experts" from headphones.com, especially the prankster "GoldenSound", the Truthear Zero Red is not as "resolving" as the Kato and has worse "technicalities" (
at 15:30). And these are professors at the YouTube university, so they must know it!
ROFLMAO The part about why they are disappointed at Truthear zero REDs has me dying:
a lot of people were hoping it would be more expensive IEM, but it turned out to be just a 50$ dollar IEM
Just for context, here is their impressions of RED from hearing them at canjam where they didn't know what price exactly its gonna be sold at. it starts at 6:52. Suggested watching with "Entry of the Gladiators" playing:


with the decline of quality comedy shows, this channel gives me a good laugh everytime
 
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Galliardist

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ROFLMAO The part about why they are disappointed at Truthear zero REDs has me dying:
Do I detect small-p politics at work here?

We get that a lot in Australian hifi retail. Companies change importers quite regularly and it changes retailers' views on so so much, to say nothing of their memories. The (now defunct) dealer that sold me a Goldring cartridge in 2002 didn't even recall selling the product when I wanted a replacement stylus a few years later, and it's just been all change again as a young salesperson who badmouthed Audioquest seriously to me in 2019 now praises them to the hilt; nothing to do with the fact that the store has to sell them following the latest change of local distributor.

This has nothing to do with the Susvara of course, except to add that in the real world rather than YouTubeland, expensive products get loved and bashed for even greater profit and reputation. Right now, I daresay a few Focal dealers are suddenly loving ASR , maybe for the first time...
 
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