ATC speakers / Monitors

[Somafunk]

It's like everybody knows the Corvette is a world class performer in every which way, but people still pine for a Porsche 911 or Ferrari in their driveway.

Your metaphor is back to front,

 

[Pearljam5000]

But as with many things, you buy the one that visually pulls at your heart strings, and I'm a sucker for the look of the ATC mid-dome. It's like everybody knows the Corvette is a world class performer in every which way, but people still pine for a Porsche 911 or Ferrari in their driveway.

I love how it looks also

 

[Frank Dernie]

FWIW the analysis I have seen shows the Neumann mid dome to have a better controlled break-up than the ATC but if the breakup is above the crossover point I am not sure that is a crucial advantage.
I have old ProAc EBS speakers in my study with an early version of the ATC dome as the mid unit. They are about 40 years old, so pre-date any of the work on directivity but few speakers I have heard are markedly preferable IMO.

I want to hear the Neumann KH420, Genelec 8361 and Geithian 901 but that means going to London, which I have avoided since the pandemic. I have been in no rush since there is nothing about my current setup which spoils my musical enjoyment but would like to experience these to "calibrate my mind".

 

[Frgirard]

The Bible said the cut frequency must be three time inferior at the breakup frequency.

 

[Ilkless]

FWIW the analysis I have seen shows the Neumann mid dome to have a better controlled break-up than the ATC but if the breakup is above the crossover point I am not sure that is a crucial advantage.
I have old ProAc EBS speakers in my study with an early version of the ATC dome as the mid unit. They are about 40 years old, so pre-date any of the work on directivity but few speakers I have heard are markedly preferable IMO.

I want to hear the Neumann KH420, Genelec 8361 and Geithian 901 but that means going to London, which I have avoided since the pandemic. I have been in no rush since there is nothing about my current setup which spoils my musical enjoyment but would like to experience these to "calibrate my mind".

I know a dealer in Birmingham with a KH420 set up, truly revelatory levels of separation.

 

[nagster]

One trick to separate the man from the boys is to see how vertically integrated the speaker manufacturer is. Those that produce everything in-house tend to be a lot more performant than those that buy OEM drivers, OEM amps, put them in a box and brand them. You'd be very surprised at how many "Pro" audio brands do the latter with a very high price tag. Which dealers like and push because they offer higher margins. Sadly.

Many years ago, the store I use says, "The tweeters on the SCM25A are not made by ATC. "said.
Is it made of ATC now?

 

[dfuller]

Many years ago, the store I use says, "The tweeters on the SCM25A are not made by ATC. "said.
Is it made of ATC now?

No, the SCM25 doesn't have the space for their in-house tweeter without a cabinet redesign - the mounting flange is too big, as I understand it.

FWIW the analysis I have seen shows the Neumann mid dome to have a better controlled break-up than the ATC but if the breakup is above the crossover point I am not sure that is a crucial advantage.
I have old ProAc EBS speakers in my study with an early version of the ATC dome as the mid unit. They are about 40 years old, so pre-date any of the work on directivity but few speakers I have heard are markedly preferable IMO.

I want to hear the Neumann KH420, Genelec 8361 and Geithian 901 but that means going to London, which I have avoided since the pandemic. I have been in no rush since there is nothing about my current setup which spoils my musical enjoyment but would like to experience these to "calibrate my mind".

Out of curiosity, where did you see that analysis? Sounds interesting.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Out of curiosity, where did you see that analysis? Sounds interesting.

Sorry, many years ago and I didn't bookmark it. It was an FE analysis of the breakup behavious of the two domes - it may well have been a K&H or Neumann paper when the new mid unit was introduced, justifying the change.

 

[Ultrasonic]

I know a dealer in Birmingham with a KH420 set up, truly revelatory levels of separation.

Birmingham in which country? If you're referring to the UK I'd be interested in knowing the dealer's name please .

 

[Scholl]

Many years ago, the store I use says, "The tweeters on the SCM25A are not made by ATC. "said.
Is it made of ATC now?

The tweeter used in the SCM25A is, according to its appearance, probably a Peerless BC25SC55-04 for the current models, or its predecessor the Peerless D26NC56-06. It is really inexpensive, it can be bought for 15$. But, despite its low price, it has perfectly adequate performances, especially in the ATC since the crossover is quite high at 3.5Khz. The D26NC56 was tested by Zaph audio some years ago. The measurement can be found on this page among other tweeters. The D26 in on the third line, third tweeter from the left.

For a long time ATC did no make their own tweeters, they bought them from Seas or Vifa. Even today, the aforementioned tweeter on the SCM25 and also their larger 38mm tweeter on the SCM300 are not (to my knowledge) made by ATC.

And there is really nothing wrong with that. It is not as if those driver manufacturers were making bad products. Often we see comments from ATC panegyrists saying that having the drivers made in house is automatically better. While it is certainly interesting from a QC perspective, it does not necessarily means better performances. Following this logic, Focal would always make better speakers than ATC since they actually make all of their drivers in house. And having seen some Focal Utopia woofer measurements on Hificompass, the performance is not there...

​

 

[dfuller]

The tweeter used in the SCM25A is, according to its appearance, probably a Peerless BC25SC55-04 for the current models, or its predecessor the Peerless D26NC56-06. It is really inexpensive, it can be bought for 15$. But, despite its low price, it has perfectly adequate performances, especially in the ATC since the crossover is quite high at 3.5Khz. The D26NC56 was tested by Zaph audio some years ago. The measurement can be found on this page among other tweeters. The D26 in on the third line, third tweeter from the left.

For a long time ATC did no make their own tweeters, they bought them from Seas or Vifa. Even today, the aforementioned tweeter on the SCM25 and also their larger 38mm tweeter on the SCM300 are not (to my knowledge) made by ATC.

And there is really nothing wrong with that. It is not as if those driver manufacturers were making bad products. Often we see comments from ATC panegyrists saying that having the drivers made in house is automatically better. While it is certainly interesting from a QC perspective, it does not necessarily means better performances. Following this logic, Focal would always make better speakers than ATC since they actually make all of their drivers in house. And having seen some Focal Utopia woofer measurements on Hificompass, the performance is not there...

​

The ATC Tweeter isn't even anything super-duper special. They go on and on about reducing distortion but when was the last time you saw a decent soft dome have serious distortion problems? That said, their tweeter is pretty nice, and does have the nice dual suspension design they do on their midrange domes.

The tweeter they were using beforehand on the bigger speakers was this guy: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-excel-t25cf-001-e0006-tweeter/ - not exactly a super cheap tweeter, even in bulk.

 

[Lopsided]

FWIW the analysis I have seen shows the Neumann mid dome to have a better controlled break-up than the ATC but if the breakup is above the crossover point I am not sure that is a crucial advantage.

Always wonder if low-order crossover was used, or an H2 or H3 hit the range and the break-up can be audible, especially for midrange. Saw somewhere alu domes can be excited by harmonics / ultrasonic contents and the break-up modulates audible range. Article promoted their diamond dome though so I'm not sure if its really a factor...

 

[Lopsided]

Sidetrack a bit, if a mid dome is dusty what's the best way to clean it?

 

[galgogergo]

Looking at the data, I think it's pretty obvious why ATC has such great mid clarity. The speaker has relatively good (not great) directivity, and the midrange is turned up 2-3dB over the rest of the spectrum. For that reason, the midrange stands out more than it does on other (more neutral speakers). You could get the same mid clarity by turning the KH310 mid dome up by 2-3dB.

I'm not sure if I should comment on this thread, as everyone seems to be biased towards each side...

Just what my take is:
it would be better not telling assumptions based on what others heard, or rather, based on what you didn't hear so far.

I've demoed Neumanns KH310 and ATC SCM25s side by side, in an acoustically treated showroom using high-end studio converters and proper AB switchers. (Apollo X series, Dangerous Monitor ST switcher.) I can tell you: the ATCs are a completely different league on their own. Especially compared to the Neumanns...

"You could get the same mid clarity by turning the KH310 mid dome up by 2-3dB."
I assume you never heard any of the speakers aforementioned, let alone both. Let alone them being side-by-side, doing a blind listening test.

I may be wrong, since I didn't read 50+ pages of comments.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Pricewise you should compare the 25’s to the KH420.

 

[Chrise36]

I'm not sure if I should comment on this thread, as everyone seems to be biased towards each side...

Just what my take is:
it would be better not telling assumptions based on what others heard, or rather, based on what you didn't hear so far.

I've demoed Neumanns KH310 and ATC SCM25s side by side, in an acoustically treated showroom using high-end studio converters and proper AB switchers. (Apollo X series, Dangerous Monitor ST switcher.) I can tell you: the ATCs are a completely different league on their own. Especially compared to the Neumanns...

"You could get the same mid clarity by turning the KH310 mid dome up by 2-3dB."
I assume you never heard any of the speakers aforementioned, let alone both. Let alone them being side-by-side, doing a blind listening test.

I may be wrong, since I didn't read 50+ pages of comments.

Can you describe the differences you heard?

 

[galgogergo]

Can you describe the differences you heard?

The Neumanns' midrange is somewhat compressed compared to the utterly translucent, linear, airy mids of the ATCs. I hope this helps, although it was years ago.

The only down-to-earth / "exact" thing I can recall is that I was listening to some mp3 (after treating myself with some proper FLAC/WAV files of course, mainly high-end recordings). And there was a place in the song (mp3), where I kept going back to over and over again. (like with hitting spacebar in a DAW repeatedly - if you know what I mean). And that the snare drum sounded distorted on the KH310, like "yeah that's mp3 obviously" - but then I switched and listened on the ATC and the distortion/harshness was gone. The snare could be heard without that artifact.
Whaaaat? I was like, that's an mp3, but the distortion was not in the file, but in the speaker itself...?? Unbelievable!

Here, in Europe, both are cheaper AFAIK, than in the US, since these are European manufactured. Maybe Neumann lets go some of its margin in order to achieve a more attractive price in the US, but I don't know.
edit: they're $4600 on Sweetwater, that's only like 15-20% more expensive, than in my country actually. I don't know about ATC'spricing in the US though.


There's a reason why all the top studios, with high-paying customers, artists and labels are going ATC mainly. See The Blackbird Studio in Nashville for example. (or even Mark Knopfler himself.) The pro line is absolutely amazing. Actually, I think it's rather the speakers being active, instead of being from the pro line, that makes the difference. I've only managed to listen to 2 models from their passive range (SCM20PSL Pro, and SCM12 Pro), but I found them to be a little weird sounding (in the same room as mentioned before). As if their freq response had some random bumps/lows in there, but maybe that's just me.
The active versions feature 3 main things, which they don't (or rather, can't) have in their passive counterparts:
- active crossovers
- bi-amplification
- and all-pass filters, to make the drivers phase-coherent

I strongly recommend you to try them out, having the chance.

 

[galgogergo]

I reckon, the Apollo X series converters stated above might have been the previous models (blackface version) then, but it doesn't make a difference in this case.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Sidetrack a bit, if a mid dome is dusty what's the best way to clean it?

They have some tar like stuff on it. So i would say don't clean it at all, the dust is part of the ride from now on. As are the fibers of my kitchen cloth from back when i tried to remove the dust on mine. ;-)

Many years ago, the store I use says, "The tweeters on the SCM25A are not made by ATC. "said.
Is it made of ATC now?

Depends on the model. The SCM 7, SCM 11, SCM 19, SCM 19A, SCM 40, SCM 40A, SCM 12 Pro use the SH25-76 Tweeter. Models SCM 10 SE, SCM 20 SL, SCM 20 SL Tower, SCM 50 SL, SCM 50 SL Tower, SCM 100 SL, SCM 100 SL Tower, SCM 150 SL, SCM 150 SL Tower, SCM 20P SL Pro, SCM 20A SL Pro, SCM 45A Pro, SCM 50A SL Pro, SCM 100A SL Pro, SCM 150A SL Pro use the SH25-76S Tweeter.

Both tweeters are made by ATC, the SH25-76S is the better model with a very, very beefy motor system. However, both have short coils in a large motor system, thus promising low distortion, as is tradition at ATC. They claim to have regular quality problems with third party tweeters used in other models. Some dude has collected information about many of their drivers: http://www.audiostereo.ro/ATC_technology.html


I personally don't like that this thread has degenerated into ATC vs Neumann/Genelec or that it talks only about ATCs three way systems. I'm sure most of their profit and volume comes from their 2 way offerings since 2015 or so. Stuff between SCM7 to SCM19A, which seems very attractive and well regarded in the press.

The prices in the US are really absurd, usually they are about 2.5x times european prices. A pair of SCM19v2 was ~1.8k€ last time i looked, in the US the price is above $4k i believe. Keep that in mind. At "our" prices, there is little serious competition.

 

[Lopsided]

They have some tar like stuff on it.

Does it get more sticky with age or change acoustic properties over time? Uncle’s JBL LX 800 had surround rot and was refoamed with stiffer rubber, he complains it doesn’t sound as smooth as before (could be nocebo).