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ATC speakers / Monitors

Frgirard

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Really? How many great sounding major label releases were mixed on Nasty 10s (NS-10s)? Probably more than any other speaker.
You can not mixe what you don't heard. A lot of Myths and legends about the ns10.
 

Spocko

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Did you mean 8361A and 8351B?
No, the 8351A was available from 2015 to 2018 (looks nearly identical to the 8351B and also GLM capable) before being replaced by the newer 8351B (tweeter size got larger, with accompanying crossover/amplifier adjustments to match). These are the 8351A measurements from Genelec which for all intents and purposes look as good as the 8351B. People are getting rid of these to upgrade to the 8351B, but I'm wondering if that's necessary - may be better to just add a Genelec subwoofer.

Screenshot 2021-11-11 131051.png
 

Spocko

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Really? How many great sounding major label releases were mixed on Nasty 10s (NS-10s)? Probably more than any other speaker.
I'm wondering if this is survivorship bias at work? If we could go back in time and replace all those NS10 monitors with plane jane ATC speakers, would it have made those major label releases any less successful? How much of the success is simply that songs like Born in the USA and Start Me Up are so iconic that the monitors used are simply irrelevant to the success of the studio/song/producer/engineer. A great engineer with great speakers mixing a sucky song will blame his speakers? No, he blames the sucky artist.

And it's not even the "sum of the parts" in this case - it's mostly the producer and artist working together on the song and then working with the mixer/master team and there's little they can do to ruin it with "bad" speakers or elevate it with "good" speakers. Sure you miss the high hat here, or the sibilance there, etc., but the essence of the song is unchanged.

PS. The best analogy I can think of is the kung fu master: whether it's a pencil, a knife or his hands, he's deadly regardless of the tools at his disposal. Cheap studios trying to cut corners bought whatever speakers were on sale in volume (like a rental fleet of Ford Mondeos) because they knew their talented mixing team can deal with it.
 
OP
Pearljam5000

Pearljam5000

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No, the 8351A was available from 2015 to 2018 (looks nearly identical to the 8351B and also GLM capable) before being replaced by the newer 8351B (tweeter size got larger, with accompanying crossover/amplifier adjustments to match). These are the 8351A measurements from Genelec which for all intents and purposes look as good as the 8351B. People are getting rid of these to upgrade to the 8351B, but I'm wondering if that's necessary - may be better to just add a Genelec subwoofer.

View attachment 164791
I almost bought a pair for a good price but in the long run they're no longer produced and I don't know how many years from now spare parts will be available so I let it go
 

Cbdb2

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I'm wondering if this is survivorship bias at work? If we could go back in time and replace all those NS10 monitors with plane jane ATC speakers, would it have made those major label releases any less successful? How much of the success is simply that songs like Born in the USA and Start Me Up are so iconic that the monitors used are simply irrelevant to the success of the studio/song/producer/engineer. A great engineer with great speakers mixing a sucky song will blame his speakers? No, he blames the sucky artist.

And it's not even the "sum of the parts" in this case - it's mostly the producer and artist working together on the song and then working with the mixer/master team and there's little they can do to ruin it with "bad" speakers or elevate it with "good" speakers. Sure you miss the high hat here, or the sibilance there, etc., but the essence of the song is unchanged.

PS. The best analogy I can think of is the kung fu master: whether it's a pencil, a knife or his hands, he's deadly regardless of the tools at his disposal. Cheap studios trying to cut corners bought whatever speakers were on sale in volume (like a rental fleet of Ford Mondeos) because they knew their talented mixing team can deal with it.
You seem to have forgotten the great sounding part. Bob would bring his own NS10s to the studio if he had to. The "consensus" seems to be that they showed flaws in the mix that other speakers (everything sounds good on ) didn't. Or "if you can make your mix sound good on NS10s it will sound good on any speaker ".
 

dfuller

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You don't mix with an NS-10, you monitor your mix on them. I am a film mixing guy now, but when I did do two-channel mixes, the NS-10 was a "check" speaker, not a mixing speaker.
Backed. I don't know when this idea got in people's heads that mixes are done exclusively on those, but absolutely not. Those things hurt to listen to for any extended period of time.
 

elvisizer

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Backed. I don't know when this idea got in people's heads that mixes are done exclusively on those, but absolutely not. Those things hurt to listen to for any extended period of time.
exactly- the whole point was that they did a good job of approximating a crappy system. check your mix on those and if it still sounds tolerable it'll sound ok on anything.
 

dshreter

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Most experienced sound engineers likely also have hearing damage from too high SPLs for too long. Data points are better to interpolate than extrapolate.
 

Cbdb2

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You don't mix with an NS-10, you monitor your mix on them. I am a film mixing guy now, but when I did do two-channel mixes, the NS-10 was a "check" speaker, not a mixing speaker.
Thanks for your opinion .I prefer Bob Clearmountains or Chris Lord-alges. Many people don't mix on NS10 but a lot of the top pros do.
From Gear sluts :
"I am an engineer newbie but a long-time recording artist and have trained with pros who use them. Chris Lord-Alge mixed four of my songs on my album and I think he is a pretty good representation of what NS-10 guys do.
They listen at low volumes. I mean low, like you can hear the fan of the computer low.
Expect everything to sound thwappy and unimpressive.
You will have to milk a lot to get good bass sounds, but I feel that is a good thing because the bass needs to translate on little speakers and ipod Headphones.
Take breaks frequently to let your ears rest.
You will need to replace the usual comfort zone of mixing while having a "this is pleasing to the ear" feeling with a "I am getting the competing instruments to sit in a good place and these monitors are giving me a shortcut to that."
You will not impress musicians with these.
You will feel cold an alone the first time you tackle electric guitar sounds through this gooo
icon5.gif
"


Did anyone actually look online.

 

Rourketown

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Short answer: they measure poorly, which makes them unsuitable for use as monitors (a monitor needs to give you the truth).
The whole philosophy behind the ATC is it's mid range dome - remember, humans hear mostly in the mid range that's likely why they are skewed on a graph but our ears don't hear like a measurement graph. Also, the dome design disperses very wide so there is no 'phasing' as you move your head around like on traditional cone mid range drivers, so everyone in the room is hearing the same thing. So if having a microscope in the most important range of human hearing is important to you - like it is to many pros - then ATC is a fine choice.

The midrange is so clean, undistorted, and natural sounding that vocals are almost life-like. Dynamics are clean and powerful. I know of no cone midrange with distortion this low and dynamics on this level, or one with response this smooth.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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I know of no cone midrange with distortion this low and dynamics on this level, or one with response this smooth.
kh420 mid range driver > atc driver
??

Fun fact, but nowdays that super dome tweeter from ATC is more comparable in distortion vs the UNIQ from kef. Yes, that small coaxial.
 

Rourketown

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I'm wondering if this is survivorship bias at work? If we could go back in time and replace all those NS10 monitors with plane jane ATC speakers, would it have made those major label releases any less successful? How much of the success is simply that songs like Born in the USA and Start Me Up are so iconic that the monitors used are simply irrelevant to the success of the studio/song/producer/engineer. A great engineer with great speakers mixing a sucky song will blame his speakers? No, he blames the sucky artist.

And it's not even the "sum of the parts" in this case - it's mostly the producer and artist working together on the song and then working with the mixer/master team and there's little they can do to ruin it with "bad" speakers or elevate it with "good" speakers. Sure you miss the high hat here, or the sibilance there, etc., but the essence of the song is unchanged.

PS. The best analogy I can think of is the kung fu master: whether it's a pencil, a knife or his hands, he's deadly regardless of the tools at his disposal. Cheap studios trying to cut corners bought whatever speakers were on sale in volume (like a rental fleet of Ford Mondeos) because they knew their talented mixing team can deal with it.
How much of the success is simply that songs like Born in the USA and Start Me Up are so iconic that the monitors used are simply irrelevant to the success of the studio/song/producer/engineer. A great engineer with great speakers mixing a sucky song will blame his speakers? No, he blames the sucky artist. - AGREE 100%, if it's a great song with a great recording you can mix it on almost anything.
 

dfuller

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Fun fact, but nowdays that super dome tweeter from ATC is more comparable in distortion vs the UNIQ from kef. Yes, that small coaxial.
No, it really isn't. ATC's mid dome is far better behaved. Jeff Bagby indicates that throughout its useful range at 95ish dB distortion is at 0.1%. As far as I'm aware, no cone midrange short of Genelec's One series coaxial can match that kind of performance. In fact, some of the only other midranges to behave nearly as well are other domes, Neumann's included. http://studio-hifi.com/images/ATC75-150S_JeffBagby.pdf

Compared to Amir's measurements of the LS50 Meta using that Uni-Q driver... Until the midwoofer crosses with the tweeter, at 96dB there's a lot of distortion going on there, up over 1%.
index.php

kh420 mid range driver > atc driver
The Neumann dome mid is an excellent driver, of that there's no doubt - but because it's a custom in-house design, unless somebody tears down a KH310 or KH420 and takes the dome out to measure it, we can't know its exact behavior.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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No, it really isn't. ATC's mid dome is far better behaved. Jeff Bagby indicates that throughout its useful range at 95ish dB distortion is at 0.1%. As far as I'm aware, no cone midrange short of Genelec's One series coaxial can match that kind of performance. In fact, some of the only other midranges to behave nearly as well are other domes, Neumann's included. http://studio-hifi.com/images/ATC75-150S_JeffBagby.pdf

Compared to Amir's measurements of the LS50 Meta using that Uni-Q driver... Until the midwoofer crosses with the tweeter, at 96dB there's a lot of distortion going on there, up over 1%.
index.php


The Neumann dome mid is an excellent driver, of that there's no doubt - but because it's a custom in-house design, unless somebody tears down a KH310 or KH420 and takes the dome out to measure it, we can't know its exact behavior.
The UNIQ from R series or Reference series are 3-way design like these ATC
The bookshel KEF R3, play a lot cleaner at 96dB:
Kef%20R3%20--%20Harmonic%20Distortion%20%2896dB%20%40%201m%29.png




I saw a guy here claming the dome mid range also its cheaper to do.
 

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thewas

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Spocko

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Here a comparable (same measurement lab) distortion comparison of the above posted R7 and a ATC SM 3 way which costs 3 times more:

View attachment 166210
(sources: http://studio-hifi.com/images/ATC_SCM50_aktiv-passiv-Stpl-4-2011.pdf and https://www.excelia-hifi.cz/kef/test/kef-r7-stereoplay_11_18.pdf )

Look both quite comparable, being both at a very good (= low) level in the mids.
But as with many things, you buy the one that visually pulls at your heart strings, and I'm a sucker for the look of the ATC mid-dome. It's like everybody knows the Corvette is a world class performer in every which way, but people still pine for a Porsche 911 or Ferrari in their driveway.
 
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