Subjectivists EVERYWHERE!!!!

[garbulky]

Please tell me you are not serious.

Your major complaint is that 'objectivists' buy ultra transparent products instead of simply ... transparent products, and NOT that 'subjectivists' buy cr@ppy products based on unsubstantiated reviews??

Yes. Because objectivists are buying the same audible sound performance and paying more. At least subjectivists think their money is getting a better experience (whether that’s true or not). Whats the objectivists excuse?

 

[JeffS7444]

or the Slithering Subjectivist sites are sending their minions here to cause trouble - I know this is the case for one site

Man they must be bored.

 

[gsp1971]

Yes. Because objectivists are buying the same audible sound performance and paying more. At least subjectivists think their money is getting a better experience (whether that’s true or not). Whats the objectivists excuse?

Again, I can't believe I am reading this.
You are complaining that objectivists pay unnecessary money for a DAC with a SINAD of 115 when a SINAD of, say, 90 already performs well beyond audibility.
And you are happy when a subjectivist pays $1000 for a power conditioner or a speaker cable for a performance upgrade which is unproven and dubious? And your argument is that they "are getting a better experience"?
My answer to you is simple. They both pay silly money. At least the objectivist pays money for a proven and measured state-of-the-art performance (albeit beyond audibility) whereas the subjectivists pays silly money fullstop.
If you belong to the latter category, you will keep paying more and more because there is no measured benchmark that tells you where to stop.

 

[beren777]

I don't know how we can allow a post titled 'Subjectivists everywhere' without data to support that they really are everywhere.

 

[AdamG]

Some of the people who come here are trolls here only to disrupt rather than learn, and some may come to persuade but in the end are themselves persuaded. The tricky part is that it is hard to tell them apart at first.


Rick "who obviously doesn't agree with the 'never take a position' school of facilitation" Denney

This ^^^. To the op @Spkrdctr, no it’s not just you. All the troll traffic is proportional to the number of Reviews accomplished and published by Amir. Have you seen the vast amount of Reviews he has done in July alone? They are getting better at hiding in plain sight. Using technical gibberish and word salad to keep us off balance. I even suspect some are connected in some way to the specific product and quite possibly are being paid or incentivized to come here and throw a wrench in the Review thread hoping to reduce the credibility of the review. You can tell that by looking at thread(s) they are active in. Not hard to connect the dots.

So, essentially the more gear Amir reviews the more Trolls and Talking Head Deniers that will come in our house and try to set the Couch on fire. This is were our Member's can help by reporting this behavior. Continue to challenge them to prove their statements and claims. Convert the smart ones when you can. Report what remains.

Lastly. Trolls live on attention. No attention, they get bored and move on. Once you have decided and recognized a Troll, don’t engage them. Ignore, and carry on the conversation like they aren’t there. They will suffocate in the silence and lack of engagement.

I love the amount of Review’s Amir has knocked out recently. Doing what he loves to do, and what we want to see and read. The secondary effect is his reviews are going to poke a Hornets nest somewhere. Hornet Drones will try to defend the nest.

 

[cany89]

Again, I can't believe I am reading this.
You are complaining that objectivists pay unnecessary money for a DAC with a SINAD of 115 when a SINAD of, say, 90 already performs well beyond audibility.
And you are happy when a subjectivist pays $1000 for a power conditioner or a speaker cable for a performance upgrade which is unproven and dubious? And your argument is that they "are getting a better experience"?
My answer to you is simple. They both pay silly money. At least the objectivist pays money for a proven and measured state-of-the-art performance (albeit beyond audibility) whereas the subjectivists pays silly money fullstop.
If you belong to the latter category, you will keep paying more and more because there is no measured benchmark that tells you where to stop.

This seems to be an interesting point:
I guess it's pointless to spend more money on an even better DAC when you can buy the same sound (because it's beyond audibility) for less money. (comparing apples to apples, not a simple DAC vs DAC with a DSP or anything).

Though I would never buy an item that got negative feedback from Amir due to measurements:
a) It's only one side of the story. Especially for speakers and headphones.
b) I would never buy anything without listening to it in my system.
c) People do overestimate their ability to hear, and most of the time an amp or speaker that measures not-so-ok would be just fine. And you don't need to pursue the best tech sheet or anything. Just listen and buy it if you like it.

Anyway, there is no explanation to spend a fortune on snake oils, that's for sure.

 

[rdenney]

Yes. Because objectivists are buying the same audible sound performance and paying more. At least subjectivists think their money is getting a better experience (whether that’s true or not). Whats the objectivists excuse?

It's a hobby and they enjoy chasing specifications as much as the next guy.

Being data-driven does not mean we are immune from GAS.

Canceling an order is a bit much, I agree. But I would turn your statement around, and say at least they don't believe they are buying an improvement they are actually going to be able to hear.

Rick "'a better experience' can also be related to admiring good engineering, by the way" Denney

 

[Wes]

Trolls live on attention. No attention, they get bored and move on. Once you have decided and recognized a Troll, don’t engage them. Ignore, and carry on the conversation like they aren’t there. They will suffocate in the silence and lack of engagement.
...

I agree only after any coherent argument they have made is rebutted. Others see these posts and may be convinced by the "trollarg" if no response at all is made.

Also I like the Talking Heads

 

[Jim Matthews]

Headphones reviews like Sennheiser HD600, 650, 650 seem like magnets for people not (yet) familiar with science behind all this audio stuff

They're affordable, and a revelation to most of us.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Being data-driven does not mean we are immune from GAS.

Guilty as charged.

 

[Jim Matthews]

I even suspect some are connected in some way to the specific product and quite possibly are being paid or incentivized to come here and throw a wrench in the Review thread hoping to reduce the credibility of the review. You can tell that by looking at thread(s) they are active in. Not hard to connect the dots.

 

[Doodski]

Is it just me, or is the number of forum posters taken a fairly hard turn to the subjectivists? Many threads now are inundated with posters posting audio claptrap while making it sound like real audio issues. This includes people responding to Amirs testing. Responding to electrical differences at the most minimal level as if they "might" have valid audibility. I saw a reference where 12ga speaker wire was claimed to be borderline. (That is rubbish). I'm not talking about special circumstances, but ideas being floated to the general public who might read these threads. I could go on but I think you get the point. It just seems like we have had a lot on here lately. What do you think?

I've avoided certain threads after much eye rolling, shrugging and deep breathing at the subjectivists here lately that keep coming in with subjectivist speak. It feels (I rarely use the term, "Feels" because I usually prefer the term, "Think.") like we are being inundated with charlatan science and a effort to contaminate and corrupt the threads. Maybe the subjectivists are so accustomed to being silly and even dumb that they have become thick skinned and calloused towards objective thinking.

 

[DWI]

Again, I can't believe I am reading this.
You are complaining that objectivists pay unnecessary money for a DAC with a SINAD of 115 when a SINAD of, say, 90 already performs well beyond audibility.
And you are happy when a subjectivist pays $1000 for a power conditioner or a speaker cable for a performance upgrade which is unproven and dubious? And your argument is that they "are getting a better experience"?
My answer to you is simple. They both pay silly money. At least the objectivist pays money for a proven and measured state-of-the-art performance (albeit beyond audibility) whereas the subjectivists pays silly money fullstop.
If you belong to the latter category, you will keep paying more and more because there is no measured benchmark that tells you where to stop.

So I was loaned a power conditioner, liked what I heard and bought it. It cost quite a bit more than $1,000. May be silly money to you, but I can't say it bothered me. I don't know quite what it did, how it did it or whether it had been proven, because I didn't read any reviews or assessments. What is a benchmark for such devices to people who don't think they do anything? I've never had any intention of buying a replacement.

You certainly seem to be quite presumptive about how other people choose to spend money and, in my case, completely wrong.

By your own argument, if an objectivist has to choose between two same price DACs whose performance is proven by measurement not to be distinguishable, so chooses one because it is prettier than the other, are they then a subjectivist?

 

[Goodman]

Yes. Because objectivists are buying the same audible sound performance and paying more. At least subjectivists think their money is getting a better experience (whether that’s true or not). Whats the objectivists excuse?

Am I a subjectivist? I listen... Amir Measures... We agree...Must be a coincidence.

 

[gsp1971]

So I was loaned a power conditioner, liked what I heard and bought it. It cost quite a bit more than $1,000. May be silly money to you, but I can't say it bothered me. I don't know quite what it did, how it did it or whether it had been proven, because I didn't read any reviews or assessments. What is a benchmark for such devices to people who don't think they do anything?

So you bought a power conditioner because you like what you heard? Implying that power conditioners produce sound? What do you want me to reply to that?

You certainly seem to be quite presumptive about how other people choose to spend money and, in my case, completely wrong.

Not presumptive at all. Your money, your choice. If you think you have spent wisely, good for you.

By your own argument, if an objectivist has to choose between two same price DACs whose performance is proven by measurement not to be distinguishable, so chooses one because it is prettier than the other, are they then a subjectivist?

Is it really the same? Even if you are selecting based on looks or functionality, you are still selecting between two well engineered products that measure well beyond state-of the-art.
Is that the same as selecting a product based purely on a subjective review without having any evidence whatsoever about its performance and whether it will improve your system or not?

 

[Inner Space]

So, essentially the more gear Amir reviews the more Trolls and Talking Head Deniers that will come in our house and try to set the Couch on fire. This is were our Member's can help by reporting this behavior. Continue to challenge them to prove their statements and claims. Convert the smart ones when you can. Report what remains.

To be painfully, scrupulously, and excruciatingly fair, we're not blameless. I think that newcomers with fresh eyes might see two things here on ASR. The first is a kind of adaptive, selective double standard. Imagine if Joe Blow posted here about his speaker evaluation method:

Joe measures, looks at the graph, and says, "I think this speaker will sound bright."
He listens, and says, "Yes! I was right!! It sounds bright!!!"
Then he prepares an EQ profile, and says, "I think this will fix the problem."
He listens, and says, "Yes! I was right!! It fixed the problem!!!"

Poor old Joe would get buried under a tsunami of Science 101 stuff about expectation bias and confirmation bias and faulty experiment design. He might then say he knows his biases and can work through them. He would then get re-buried under a second tsunami about how no one can control his biases, and indeed not even know what they are.

Yet that's basically how Amir works with speakers. Now, actually, personally, I'm OK with that. I'm ready to take the word of a trusted pro. (Which is an attitude I just got criticized for - by Amir!) But it presents as a case of some animals being more equal than others. We need to decide exactly where we stand on this issue.

The second thing new folks might see is a lack of joined-up thinking about speaker FR. It seems like most folks recommend flat on-axis FR (which we can't ever actually get) at the cost of reducing choice and possibly increasing expense. Then their second recommendation is to use EQ! In other words, they take their kinda-not-really-flat FR and turn it into a totally-not-flat FR, in order to match a LP curve they read about in a book. Often the result is one they could have reached with less DSP power by starting with a non-flat FR. Whichever, they're now listening to direct sound a lot more wonky than they paid for. It's an incoherent approach.

So if people come here to throw stones, we should make sure we ain't made of glass.

 

[Wes]

So I was loaned a poodler conditioner, liked what I heard and bought it. It cost quite a bit more than $1,000. May be silly money to you, but I can't say it bothered me, just the poodle. I don't know quite what it did, how it did it or whether it had been proven, because I didn't read any reviews or assessments. What is a benchmark for such devices to poodles who don't think they do anything? I've never had any intention of buying a replacement.

I choose this one because it is prettier than the other, am I then a subjectivist?

 

[AdamG]

@Inner Space,

All valid points. We do tend to be harsh and in some respect hypocritical. I make no arguments to the contrary. We are as a group too fast to tag a new member as a troll or something similar. But at the end of the day. This is a science centric forum and science deniers are not going to get many passes from the core membership. We can’t convert everyone and some will ultimately find their way to the Exit. It’s a daily dance as the reports roll in. Most are here because they are tired of reading subjective make believe narratives and watching the crowd cheer. This is a very unique Forum. Trying to find the proper balance is challenging and I expect it to become more so as our numbers grow.

 

[DWI]

So you bought a power conditioner because you like what you heard? Implying that power conditioners produce sound? What do you want me to reply to that?

Not presumptive at all. Your money, your choice. If you think you have spent wisely, good for you.

Is it really the same? Even if you are selecting based on looks or functionality, you are still selecting between two well engineered products that measure well beyond state-of the-art.
Is that the same as selecting a product based purely on a subjective review without having any evidence whatsoever about its performance and whether it will improve your system or not?

I would agree with you about reviews. I can't remember ever selecting a product based on a review, let alone purely on a review. You've got to waste your time reading them first.

 

[Jimbob54]

So I was loaned a poodler conditioner, liked what I heard and bought it. It cost quite a bit more than $1,000. May be silly money to you, but I can't say it bothered me, just the poodle. I don't know quite what it did, how it did it or whether it had been proven, because I didn't read any reviews or assessments. What is a benchmark for such devices to poodles who don't think they do anything? I've never had any intention of buying a replacement.

I choose this one because it is prettier than the other, am I then a subjectivist?

I'm confused. Is the subjectivist audio consumer in this analogy a poodle or a poodle owner? Is it a digital or analog poodle? Is distortion like rabies or worse?