Subjectivists EVERYWHERE!!!!

[mhardy6647]

(ahh, c'mon -- someone had to do it, right? )

 

[Leiker535]

The objective measurement of hifi stuff on ASR is the right way to go and provides valuable information to us hobbyists. However, some questions remain in spite of all the technical measurements. For example, why do acolyte objectivists find excuses to buy expensive dacs and amps even though they all apparently sound the same? Where is the killer double blind test between a Denon AVR-X3700 and (say) Arcam SA30 or Luxman L-505uXII which proves beyond doubt that they sound the exactly the same? Establishing that a Topping E30 is audibly indistinguishable from a Cyrus DAC XP Signature would be absolute vindication of ASR objectivism. In the absence of these, ASR assertions are just that; assertions.

That had me hanging in the beginning as well, but the consensual opinion that I gathered is that they differ only on feature-set, and ideal marriage (stacks and ideal voltage coupling with the family amp), in a utilitarian perspective

In a aesthetic perspective, well, a glorified Holo May DAC may be the definition of overkill, but it is still very pretty and sits nicely in the living room or on your desktop. In this perspective it is also nice to understand that this forum is made by nerds and geeks for nerds and geeks. Different topology designs and implementation fascinate people, and that, when coupled with superb measuring results, can lead to a buyers approval, even though said buyer knows he can't distinguish between a today's $100 Delta Sigma and a $4000 R2R.

Hell, look at Schiits own sassy F.A.Q over their Yggdrasil page:

Spoiler

Wait, what is this about 32-bit music?

How much 32 bit music do you have? (Not that it will ever exist—we can't get the noise floor that low. Period. Unless Dr. Who pays us a visit and drops some alien tech on us...)



You guys are crazy!

Yes. We know that. And so are you. You're considering a $2,300, 25-lb product that does the same basic thing as a $0.32 chip in your iPhone.

 

[DWI]

I am objectivist to the point that I won't buy anything that measures really badly, but I like good software and things that work well. For example, my wife loves Roon.

I have increasingly got my wife and kids involved in making audio decisions, to the extent that last December my wife chose the speakers for our new music and reading room. The looks and colour were critical to her, fortunately the sound is good as well. They cost four times more than I've ever spent on speakers. ASR cannot measure things like domestic bliss, but I can, and it's close to 100%.

I'm perfectly fine with people buying products purely based on measured performance and value for money, and I signed into this forum to find such a product (a $79 Zorloo in-line headphone DAC). I would hope such people are fine with others buying speakers because the wife likes the colour, irrespective of the price.

 

[Katji]

^^^The problem/issue is not subjective buying choice and so on, the problem is assertions of magic and pseudo-science internet mythology and "science doesn't know everything" nonsense.

 

[Pennyless Audiophile]

^^^The problem/issue is not subjective buying choice and so on, the problem is assertions of magic and pseudo-science internet mythology and "science doesn't know everything" nonsense.

This is interesting. What are the open points in audio science? What is still in need of investigation? What are modern studies focusing on?

 

[JeffS7444]

I think that on some other forums, it is seen as a badge of honor to come to ASR to be flayed alive and eventually banned. I've often thought they divided up the calendar and took turns--a new antagonist every few days just to keep the antagonism up.

It's much more entertaining to see someone get banned by Romy the Cat over at Good Sound Club.

 

[DSJR]

On other forums it's la-la land. Preamp sound quality ( IMO preamps do not, in general,
have "sound quality").

OH YES THEY DO!!! - But only the overpriced audiophool models which are deliberately hobbled and which don't seem to get better with each revision and new generation. The fact you can 'do' a line buffer on little more than a postage stamp doesn't count at all...

 

[ahofer]

The objective measurement of hifi stuff on ASR is the right way to go and provides valuable information to us hobbyists. However, some questions remain in spite of all the technical measurements. For example, why do acolyte objectivists find excuses to buy expensive dacs and amps even though they all apparently sound the same? Where is the killer double blind test between a Denon AVR-X3700 and (say) Arcam SA30 or Luxman L-505uXII which proves beyond doubt that they sound the exactly the same? Establishing that a Topping E30 is audibly indistinguishable from a Cyrus DAC XP Signature would be absolute vindication of ASR objectivism. In the absence of these, ASR assertions are just that; assertions.

There have been many blind tests of expensive equipment, and they seem to convince nobody.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/catalogue-of-blind-tests.8675/

 

[MaxBuck]

^^^The problem/issue is not subjective buying choice and so on, the problem is assertions of magic and pseudo-science internet mythology and "science doesn't know everything" nonsense.

The problem with your statement is that science doesn't know everything. And science that pretends it does know everything can be pretty dangerous. .

Fortunately here in audio the dangers relate primarily to wasted money.

 

[Honken]

The objective measurement of hifi stuff on ASR is the right way to go and provides valuable information to us hobbyists. However, some questions remain in spite of all the technical measurements. For example, why do acolyte objectivists find excuses to buy expensive dacs and amps even though they all apparently sound the same? Where is the killer double blind test between a Denon AVR-X3700 and (say) Arcam SA30 or Luxman L-505uXII which proves beyond doubt that they sound the exactly the same? Establishing that a Topping E30 is audibly indistinguishable from a Cyrus DAC XP Signature would be absolute vindication of ASR objectivism. In the absence of these, ASR assertions are just that; assertions.

The equipment in my setup I bought due to the fact that it measured well, have the features that I want, looks OK and were within what I am willing to spend on items.

I'm not willing to spend the megabucks required for SOTA speakers yet (got a few years left of living sort of cheaply to cover mortgages etc., the total cost of my setup is less than the cheapest Revel floorstanders here), but the difference between say, a decent amp and the Hypex NC400 isn't huge in absolute terms so why not go for SOTA? I'll probably buy new speakers down the road and lose some of the cash I spent on my current speakers, but I can still enjoy the rest of my equipment after doing so. My current Elacs were less than $400 bucks.

Personally, I've been dismayed at some of the uncontested claims that users make in threads related to cheaper electronics, and not because they are discussing cheaper electronics. The users in the threads regarding the SMSL DA-9 and the Sabaj A20 for example are making some rather substantial claims regarding their quality and are actively guiding newcomers in their purchases. I'm not saying that people recommending these devices are wrong or lying, and I'm not saying that new buyers wouldn't be happy with these devices. But making claims without any data to back it up shouldn't really happen here, there are myriads of other forums to make such claims at.

It's a fine line in the end and I do think there is room around here for subjectiveness as well but it needs to be presented as such.

 

[JJB70]

Subjectivism is normally presented in the context of florid prose waxing lyrical about expensive exotica and an interest in cables, magic rocks etc There is an alternative to this, a form of subjectivism I follow, namely that if you are happy with something then be happy and enjoy it without worrying what others might think of it. Good sound quality has been commoditised and has never been so accessible. You no longer need to buy a separate source as a smartphone or tablet is all you need. Get a decent set of speakers which needn't cost much, set them up and you are pretty much sorted. If you go passive then powerful amplifiers can be purchased for not a lot and I really don't think it's necessary to buy a DAC if you just want straight playback from a tablet or phone. And there are some terrific wireless speakers now. Ditto for headphones, you can get excellent headphones at modest cost and there is no shortage of excellent wireless headphones.
Does everything measure spectacularly well? No. But for the electronics performance is so good it's probably a lot more difficult to find stuff which is audibly degraded than stuff which is just fine. Speakers and headphones are a little different as they are audibly different but take time to set them up and use EQ to taste and most can be made to sound just fine. My own opinion is that if you have to concentrate and find it stressful or difficult to discern differences then such differences really don't matter. Audio equipment is a tool to facilitate enjoyment of music and your gear lets you do just that then it's fine.
Does this mean that there is no reason to buy expensive gear? Yes and no. No you don't need to spend much and you don't need to worry about technical performance unless you buy an outlier. But if you want premium quality, great industrial design or any number of other things then that's your choice and there is nothing to be ashamed of or defensive about. Despite what I have wrote here I would love a classic Accuphase set up. I am a subjectivist in the sense of really not being that bothered about a lot of equipment, but I love classic hifi and adore the old statement pieces made by companies like Pioneer, Sony and Nakamichi in the 80's.

 

[garbulky]

I am a happy subjectivist that enjoys reading about measurement of some of my favorite gear. I think Amir provides a relevant and valuable service. What confuses me is hypocrisy from people that are objectivists. They claim to value objective principles and poo poos snake oil. These subjectivists are wasting their money on gear that doesn't sound better. However they will happily shell out the dough for ultra low distortion products that don’t make any difference that their listening. They’ll claim it’s for peace of mind knowing that they have the most transparent gear. But if you buy into the general thinking here, that transparent gear sounds just as transparent as a much cheaper Higher distortion product. In a way the tech race for distortion (and the profit it generates) is a form of snake oil for objectivists. So I’m surprised there isn’t more stress on how little the very low distortion measurements matter on most gear. And any objectivist that wants to order it isn't immediately criticized for "falling for the numbers and not double blind testing" in the same way that subjectivists are.

 

[rdenney]

I am a happy subjectivist that enjoys reading about measurement of some of my favorite gear. I think Amir provides a relevant and valuable service. What confuses me is hypocrisy from people that are objectivists. They claim to value objective principles abd poo poos snake oil. However they will happily shell out the dough for ultra low distortion products that don’t make any difference that their listening. They’ll claim it’s for peace of mind knowing that they have the most transparent gear. But if you buy into the general thinking here, that transparent gear sounds just as transparent as a much cheaper Higher distortion product. In a way the tech race for distortion (and the profit it generates) is a form of snake oil for objectivists. So I’m surprised there isn’t more stress on how little the very low distortion measurements matter on most gear.

For all of your posts, you seem to not be reading the same threads I'm reading, where this is indeed stressed repeatedly.

How many times does "this is well beyond what is audible" need to be said to satisfy you that it is being said enough?

Rick "who buys used stuff that tested well a year or two (or 10, or 30) ago" Denney

 

[Wes]

It's either(both) simply more people joined the forum or we are touching some topics that naturally envok some related discussion.

or the Slithering Subjectivist sites are sending their minions here to cause trouble - I know this is the case for one site

 

[gsp1971]

I am a happy subjectivist that enjoys reading about measurement of some of my favorite gear. I think Amir provides a relevant and valuable service. What confuses me is hypocrisy from people that are objectivists. They claim to value objective principles abd poo poos snake oil. However they will happily shell out the dough for ultra low distortion products that don’t make any difference that their listening. They’ll claim it’s for peace of mind knowing that they have the most transparent gear. But if you buy into the general thinking here, that transparent gear sounds just as transparent as a much cheaper Higher distortion product. In a way the tech race for distortion (and the profit it generates) is a form of snake oil for objectivists. So I’m surprised there isn’t more stress on how little the very low distortion measurements matter on most gear.

Please tell me you are not serious.

Your major complaint is that 'objectivists' buy ultra transparent products instead of simply ... transparent products, and NOT that 'subjectivists' buy cr@ppy products based on unsubstantiated reviews??

 

[Wes]

This is interesting. 1 What are the open points in audio science? 2 What is still in need of investigation? 3 What are modern studies focusing on?

I've posted about 1,2 before - dunno if you can dig them out easily but maybe in some threads I've started

3 is a nullity - little research is focused on SQ specifically, with maybe some exceptions in E. Canada - beside the stuff done internally and not publically available

 

[JJB70]

Please tell me you are not serious.

Your major complaint is that 'objectivists' buy ultra transparent products instead of simply ... transparent products, and NOT that 'subjectivists' buy cr@ppy products based on unsubstantiated reviews??

What is ultra transparent? There is some argument about what transparent is, but it is one of those ideas which seems to be a binary question. Something is transparent or not transparent.

 

[DWI]

This forum may have subjectivists but at least they're somewhat reasonable here and they're kept in check by the rest of us.
On other forums it's la-la land. Endless discussions about the sound of wires. Cable elevators. Preamp sound quality ( IMO preamps do not, in general,
have "sound quality"). Sound quality of CD players (again IMO cdp's do not, in general, have "sound quality"). And wait till you see what happens if you challenge them.

I've felt other forums reflect a lot of brand loyalty, almost cult-like, and ASR has been accused of the same. That simply reflects successful marketing, because the whole point of developing brand loyalty is to get people to buy the brand rather than products on the basis of objective assessment. If it means paying reviewers, or kissing their feet on a regular basis, that's all part of the commercial game. It's the world we live in.

I'm often what ASR folk call subjective, but I've got no brand loyalty. I've bought products with no knowledge of the brand whatsoever and never give the brand much thought. I think it's the brand loyalty that causes much of the friction, because there are perfectly good subjective reasons for buying audio, for example liking the app or the wife liking the looks/colour.

 

[Vini darko]

Petty tribalism is the bedrock of social media. It's a lot of fun to watch.

 

[garbulky]

I

For all of your posts, you seem to not be reading the same threads I'm reading, where this is indeed stressed repeatedly.

How many times does "this is well beyond what is audible" need to be said to satisfy you that it is being said enough?

Rick "who buys used stuff that tested well a year or two (or 10, or 30) ago" Denney

I do read it abd I’m not talking about them. A good example is the latest thx unit being reviewed. Some posters ordered the previous version which was also ultra low distortion. Now they’re wringing their hand wondering whether to cancel it. Like why?

even Amir listening impressions talked about the clean sound etc as if that isn’t the exact same sound he’s heard before from higher distortion units. (Granted I’m being a little too harsh here as he wasn’t overly gushy)