Subjectivists EVERYWHERE!!!!

[Spkrdctr]

Is it just me, or is the number of forum posters taken a fairly hard turn to the subjectivists? Many threads now are inundated with posters posting audio claptrap while making it sound like real audio issues. This includes people responding to Amirs testing. Responding to electrical differences at the most minimal level as if they "might" have valid audibility. I saw a reference where 12ga speaker wire was claimed to be borderline. (That is rubbish). I'm not talking about special circumstances, but ideas being floated to the general public who might read these threads. I could go on but I think you get the point. It just seems like we have had a lot on here lately. What do you think?

 

[Jim Matthews]

Only threatening ideas draw attention from the Zealots.

 

[JohnYang1997]

It's either(both) simply more people joined the forum or we are touching some topics that naturally envok some related discussion.

 

[David Harper]

This forum may have subjectivists but at least they're somewhat reasonable here and they're kept in check by the rest of us.
On other forums it's la-la land. Endless discussions about the sound of wires. Cable elevators. Preamp sound quality ( IMO preamps do not, in general,
have "sound quality"). Sound quality of CD players (again IMO cdp's do not, in general, have "sound quality"). And wait till you see what happens if you challenge them.

 

[cany89]

Preamp sound quality ( IMO preamps do not, in general,
have "sound quality").

Not so sure about this… (I’m not here to kindle fires though, take it easy)

 

[David Harper]

Not so sure about this… (I’m not here to kindle fires though, take it easy)

no problem. my fighting days on audio forums are over.

 

[fieldcar]

I have noticed this too. It's probably just new traffic.

The only time I got caught "on the other side of the fence" was when I said that I supported listening before measurements. I only said that intending to highlight the nature of in ear and over ear targets like Harman being a good 90% of the way there, but not neutral and preferable to me. I suspect it's my unique pinna structure/gain and taste that makes me think that Harman is too bright around 5K. Speakers on the other hand, I'll gladly buy speakers only based on measurements following that downward slope target. (Can't remember the name. Is it an in-room linear target at 1dB/decade?) Anyway. That's my opinion.

 

[Jimbob54]

I think its just a symptom of the growth of the site. Most members, myself included, have little aptitude or inclination to start measuring, tinkering and building but still want to contribute to the various discussions. I just think some want to go further than their view on form and function and so go down the "how it sounds" route.

I'll be honest. after saying the SMSL M500 was a good option for people based on measurements and I had one and found it no different to other DACs (may have even said it was "clean"), I learnt to shut up about anything relating to sound https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/strange-smsl-m500-high-3rd-harmonic.22710/

 

[Mart68]

Is it just me, or is the number of forum posters taken a fairly hard turn to the subjectivists? Many threads now are inundated with posters posting audio claptrap while making it sound like real audio issues. This includes people responding to Amirs testing. Responding to electrical differences at the most minimal level as if they "might" have valid audibility. I saw a reference where 12ga speaker wire was claimed to be borderline. (That is rubbish). I'm not talking about special circumstances, but ideas being floated to the general public who might read these threads. I could go on but I think you get the point. It just seems like we have had a lot on here lately. What do you think?

The problem I think is that in the interests of accuracy edge-case scenarios where there is a measurable difference tend to be mentioned. This is then seized upon as the reason why ''soundstage expanded 3 feet beyond the 'speakers'' (or whatever) since it's not been made clear that in normal use i.e just listening to some music, it's never going to be audible in a million years,

 

[raif71]

I think it's how one expects the site to be. If you expect the site to be more objective then you are prone to any subjective noise and tend to think that the site is getting more subjective tones. Vice versa, if one is subjective then one may feel minority here amongst the majority of the objective people. Me, I like both objective and subjective so I enjoy both companies and so far I like the balance on this site though I hope the objectivists might be more educational towards the subjectivists rather than belittling them.

 

[abdo123]

People are free to share opinions, just because someone doesn't own a 50000$ analyzer doesn't mean they don't get to participate in the forum.

I'm only bothered when they say a device is bad based on something not tangible.

if you want to be really objective there are only few relevant tests that Amir does to most electronics, and that is S/N test, frequency response / load dependency, output power vs THD% and frequency vs THD% (if it's reaaally bad).

the rest like SINAD, Jitter, multi-tone .etc are all pointless imo, outside of comparison purposes.

 

[rdenney]

I really do wish we could dispense with the "subjective" vs. "objective" terminology. I know I hope in vain. But the problem isn't subjective evaluation, it's uncontrolled subjective impressions masquerading as controlled subjective testing.

When Toole and Olive developed their preference models, they were engaged in subjective testing. Only when they related those preferences to actual measurements, which led them to characterize those measurements in a Spinorama with a Directivity Index, did it jump over to objective measurement.

On the topic, I think that on some other forums, it is seen as a badge of honor to come to ASR to be flayed alive and eventually banned. I've often thought they divided up the calendar and took turns--a new antagonist every few days just to keep the antagonism up.

We are not necessarily better, however--how many times have I seen someone post one of Amir's reviews on another site, been banned for it, and then return here to brag about it? I'm not sure this serves the mission, which is to support data-driven decision-making rather than making decisions based on how we feel, as manipulated by those who are good at such manipulations. That's the real divide.

Ignorance makes us a target for manipulation, but steady and polite contention is often a necessary strategy to break through the crust of uninformed conviction and actually be persuasive. The notion that most people who have spent decades being trained on making decisions based on fleeting feelings will see the light as soon as the first bit of data comes their way is itself unevidenced in human history. Likewise, passionate ad hominem retorts to them will simply be unproductive.

Rick "'Mozart, you are passionate, but you do not persuade'" Denney

 

[usersky]

Headphones reviews like Sennheiser HD600, 650, 650 seem like magnets for people not (yet) familiar with science behind all this audio stuff

 

[JJB70]

Why does there need to be a conflict between valuing measurement and also being interested in what might be called subjective preference? How many people are going to claim they only consider measurements when buying stuff? If people are honest I suspect most also consider industrial design, perceived quality, manufacturers reputation for durability and reliability, after sales support, user interface, feature set and perhaps above all price. And appreciating measurement is not the same as slavishly confirming to a given response curve. And those who describe themselves as objective but are chasing inaudible improvements in a metric like SINAD are displaying a subjective preference. Dividing people into camps is seldom positive or healthy, personally I think a lot of the problems in society are and always have been linked to dividing people into"them" and "us".

 

[Katji]

Yes.

It seems like some didn't notice the [science] in the forum name, just jumped in from a Google link, or don't quite know what is science.

I think its just a symptom of the growth of the site. [...]

 

[Katji]

Why does there need to be a conflict between valuing measurement and also being interested in what might be called subjective preference?
[...]

In short, there is not. The problem is not quite understanding what is science, and the effect of years of internet forum and review bullshit.
[...] Not subjective preference, per se.

[...]How many people are going to claim they only consider measurements when buying stuff? If people are honest I suspect most also consider industrial design, perceived quality, manufacturers reputation for durability and reliability, after sales support, user interface, feature set and perhaps above all price.

No-one / "objectivists" do not. Those factors are quite commonly referred [here].

[...] And appreciating measurement is not the same as slavishly confirming to a given response curve. And those who describe themselves as objective but are chasing inaudible improvements in a metric like SINAD are displaying a subjective preference.

More like they are interested in the engineering and the technological development. ...You could call that a subjective preference, However, it is not what is meant by "subjectivist" here / in the OP.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

I've done what I've done. I've seen what I've seen. I'm finished. Now it's the younger generation's turn, and I view them with a combination of humor and despair. Jim

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes.

It seems like some didn't notice the [science] in the forum name, just jumped in from a Google link, or don't quite know what is science.

In fairness, why should they care? Its a measurement led review site first and foremost. They see a product they own/ want reviewed and either ask questions or offer opinions as they would on any other review site.

 

[rdenney]

Why does there need to be a conflict...?

My edit probably violates the point you are making, but I'm doing it for a reason and begging your indulgence. And that reason is: In my current professional work, I teach adults technical topics. Some of what I teach seeks to convert them to a new view and away from a traditional view. I also facilitate meetings at the front end of uncertain processes, and thus am in the role of helping people focus on what is important in the face of many competing influences.

In both cases, I have learned that everyone being merely agreeable with each other ("nice") does not necessarily change any views or cause any enlightenment. Most people need a reason to question their own position. I have not observed that friendly and peaceful meetings arrive at the correct solution to a complex problem any more efficiently than contentious meetings (that, of course, enforce mutual respect and avoid personal attacks). Sharp disagreements force us to defend our position, and that may give us a reason to question that opinion. Many people will seem to be fighting to submission, but are actually being persuaded along the way, perhaps without even realizing it until later. I know that's true with me.

The one thing that we must be true to, however, is basing our arguments on data and evidence. Whether that evidence is subjective or objective doesn't matter, but the reliability of the observation--in a scientific sense--does. That's where this forum should be scrupulous, but it should be scrupulous by example, and not lapse into fallacies such as an appeal to authority. I've never yet seen Floyd Toole, for example, tell anyone that something is true just because he's really smart. He has expressed opinions, but his language makes it clear what is opinion and what is a scientific conclusion, and how those two attributes are related. He references arguments in his book that show data. He describes the results of scientific analysis and observation as the basis for his arguments. That should be an example for all of us.

So, sharply expressed disagreement isn't the problem, and to some extent it is necessary to persuade people of anything. The problem will be expressing a lack of respect for those who are most likely merely deluded or misinformed.

Some of the people who come here are trolls here only to disrupt rather than learn, and some may come to persuade but in the end are themselves persuaded. The tricky part is that it is hard to tell them apart at first.

The appreciation of the view from the top is directly proportional to the difficulty of the climb. Conclusions reached after contention stick. Appeal to authority only lasts until the next authority comes along.

Rick "who obviously doesn't agree with the 'never take a position' school of facilitation" Denney

 

[Roland]

The objective measurement of hifi stuff on ASR is the right way to go and provides valuable information to us hobbyists. However, some questions remain in spite of all the technical measurements. For example, why do acolyte objectivists find excuses to buy expensive dacs and amps even though they all apparently sound the same? Where is the killer double blind test between a Denon AVR-X3700 and (say) Arcam SA30 or Luxman L-505uXII which proves beyond doubt that they sound the exactly the same? Establishing that a Topping E30 is audibly indistinguishable from a Cyrus DAC XP Signature would be absolute vindication of ASR objectivism. In the absence of these, ASR assertions are just that; assertions.