Audiofools turned objectivists or vice-versa?

[ahofer]

We all know the old question. "What's the difference between a Porsche and a porcupine?"

A: On the porcupine, the pricks are on the outside.

Best architectural joke I ever heard was a criticism of the Lloyd's building in London - "a creature with its intestines on the exterior and multiple assholes within"

 

[MarkS]

Yeah, I'd think unless there were some pretty profound differences between the amps (like a cheap A/V receiver vs. a Purifi), that would be unlikely. But I'd love to see it done!

Of course, measurements indicate that a cheap A/V receiver cannot be distinguished from a Purifi. There are no "profound" differences.

 

[BluesDaddy]

I'd be thrilled if somebody could actually do something like listen to a full performance of Beethoven's 9th, and then, on the basis of the complete experience, declare which of two amps had been in use, and be consistently correct.

Everything we have learned so far about hearing and psychoacoustics says that won't happen. So if it did, it would be absolutely fascinating!

Human echoic memory is not long enough to be able to make that comparison truly possible (though people might think it does). People may remember their impressions OF the sound, but not the sound itself in the sense of being able to compare it to another, similar sound, beyond 3 to 4 seconds. Consequently, for an entire listening session of the 9th, what you would be recalling is how one pass or the other made you feel (but not the feeling itself) not the actual SOUND of it. There is a lot of science on this subject, though not necessarily coming at it from an audio reproduction standpoint. My wife was a Music Therapy major and they got into basic pyschoacoustics a good bit. That was almost 40 years ago. I'm sure the science has advanced greatly since then.

 

[chad2]

The way i see being an audiophile is the same way i see the difference in taste buds. Everyone hears differently. i don't hear anything above 17 khz but that is probably due to being in the navy for 12 years now. this is just like talking to a person who smokes, about how much seasoning a steak needs, my hearing is ruined by jet engines and his taste is ruined by smoking. On top of that, you might think the best pizza in the world is little Caesars but i think the best pizza in the world is Regina's pizza in the north end of Boston. i play music on my system and i can hear how far the instruments are and i pay attention to the accuracy of how it sounds when the musicians fingers slide across the strings, where as my brother just say "i love this song". my brother in-law hates cilantro because it taste like soap to him, but i LOVE cilantro i think it gives a great flavor to many different foods. we all hear differently and we all have different pocket sizes if you want to pay $$$$$ for something that you think is the best, then go for it. my pocket barely allows me to pay $$$, so i have to find what i think is the best in my price range. But i have noticed a very strong separation in this hobby to include A LOT of bashing and insulting on other members of the community when we should be embracing more and new members with open arms, but in reality we are pushing anyone how does not agree with our ideas away. I love music and i love the idea of making my system better in anyway that i can. i hope to see my children and or friends do the same to help build this community even more. i have noticed that the people around you will start to get passionate about music also if your willing to help without lobbing insults.

 

[MarkS]

Human echoic memory is not long enough to be able to make that comparison truly possible (though people might think it does). People may remember their impressions OF the sound, but not the sound itself in the sense of being able to compare it to another, similar sound, beyond 3 to 4 seconds.

Well, that's indeed what current science says. But rather than recite it dogmatically, I prefer to be open to the possibility that something has been overlooked. And if someone can demonstrate that in a controllable, reproducible way, more power to them. That's how science advances.

 

[BluesDaddy]

Well, that's indeed what current science says. But rather than recite it dogmatically, I prefer to be open to the possibility that something has been overlooked. And if someone can demonstrate that in a controllable, reproducible way, more power to them. That's how science advances.

You might as well also be open to the possibility that a perpetual motion machine really IS possible and the first and second laws of thermodynamics don't apply. Magic just doesn't exist no matter how "open" you might be to it.

 

[chad2]

You might as well also be open to the possibility that a perpetual motion machine really IS possible and the first and second laws of thermodynamics don't apply. Magic just doesn't exist no matter how "open" you might be to it.

you have obviously never seen the chris angle show LOL

but at least your proving that there is always going to be rude people SCIENCE!!!

 

[BluesDaddy]

you have obviously never seen the chris angle show LOL

but at least your proving that there is always going to be rude people SCIENCE!!!

 

[mhardy6647]

. . . a wife (completely uninterested in audio) who shouts from the kitchen: ‘Honey what did you just change? It sounds so much better!’

do they do that just to taunt/torture/troll us?

 

[chad2]

do they do that just to taunt/torture/troll us?

some do! but the ones that are being honest are obviously just wanting to hear a diff

 

[chad2]

Are you referring to Criss Angel the supposed magician who relies upon shills, fake audience members and camera trickery to perform his "magic?"

NO we are for sure talking about two different shows. the one i am talking about is all real in the streets magic

 

[raistlin65]

do they do that just to taunt/torture/troll us?

There are also the ones who default to, "It sounds great, honey" by default. Because if it's not great, the audiophile is going to ask questions about what their spouse didn't like about it

 

[Blaspheme]

You might as well also be open to the possibility that a perpetual motion machine really IS possible and the first and second laws of thermodynamics don't apply. Magic just doesn't exist no matter how "open" you might be to it.

Well, that's indeed what current science says. But rather than recite it dogmatically, I prefer to be open to the possibility that something has been overlooked. And if someone can demonstrate that in a controllable, reproducible way, more power to them. That's how science advances.

I studied sound a while back. There are differences between categorical and continuous listening in the literature, associated recall, categorical versus qualitative differentiation, and prevalence of error types associated with testing protocols (ABX vs 4IAX, etc). If you were being scientific, rather than looking for false negatives, you'd probably explore those things and be a bit more rigorous than some of the ABX-or-diehards that post here. But engineers wannabe scientists, it seems, without doing the work. There's no need to resort to perpetual motion strawmen.

 

[MaxBuck]

You might as well also be open to the possibility that a perpetual motion machine really IS possible and the first and second laws of thermodynamics don't apply. Magic just doesn't exist no matter how "open" you might be to it.

Believing that the science of audio perception is as settled as the laws of thermodynamics shows little awareness of science and the limitations of human knowledge.

 

[Angsty]

Which would you rather have, WAMM Master Chronosonic, or M9?

M9 - I have a soft spot for the Magicos. Although, I’d be happy to take an A5 and use the surplus on a new vacation house to hold it!

 

[Angsty]

Certainly most audiophiles are men, but behind every successful man is a wife (completely uninterested in audio) who shouts from the kitchen: ‘Honey what did you just change? It sounds so much better!’

My wife will typically say that only if I switch to her preferred music!

 

[MarkS]

You might as well also be open to the possibility that a perpetual motion machine really IS possible and the first and second laws of thermodynamics don't apply. Magic just doesn't exist no matter how "open" you might be to it.

I don't think that's in nearly the same league as the possibility of long-term audio memory, which would in no way violate any fundamental laws of physics (or biology or chemistry or information theory or anything else).

That said, given the research that's been done to date, the burden of proof is very much on those who claim that long-term listening can reveal audible differences that short-term listening does not. It's up to them to prove that this is a real phenomenon, by doing many-trial, truly blind listening tests with results with very high statistical significance (personally I would want greater than 5 sigma before I paid any attention).

 

[Mystical Boar]

But i have noticed a very strong separation in this hobby to include A LOT of bashing and insulting on other members of the community when we should be embracing more and new members with open arms, but in reality we are pushing anyone how does not agree with our ideas away.

This is nice and maybe there was a time I would've agreed, but these days I know better. As any online community grows, the lower the common denominator becomes. Now think about all the crazy ideas out there these days... The internet becomes progressively censored; you can't say how you really feel about something or you'll get labeled and banned/canceled. In my experience, sceptic and ironic communities attract more interesting people as mature people don't treat themselves too seriously and you can't push their buttons as easily. "Special" people are quick to make demands about what shouldn't be allowed anymore because someone may get sore. Be well.

 

[Blaspheme]

I don't think that's in nearly the same league as the possibility of long-term audio memory, which would in no way violate any fundamental laws of physics (or biology or chemistry or information theory or anything else).

That said, given the research that's been done to date, the burden of proof is very much on those who claim that long-term listening can reveal audible differences that short-term listening does not. It's up to them to prove that this is a real phenomenon, by doing many-trial, truly blind listening tests with results with very high statistical significance (personally I would want greater than 5 sigma before I paid any attention).

You want to be sure that the test protocol has sufficient sensitivity, and generally that false negatives as well as false positives are minimised. Also, length of listening by itself may not be the issue that confounds ABX testing.

 

[Mart68]

The way i see being an audiophile is the same way i see the difference in taste buds. Everyone hears differently. i don't hear anything above 17 khz but that is probably due to being in the navy for 12 years now. this is just like talking to a person who smokes, about how much seasoning a steak needs, my hearing is ruined by jet engines and his taste is ruined by smoking. On top of that, you might think the best pizza in the world is little Caesars but i think the best pizza in the world is Regina's pizza in the north end of Boston. i play music on my system and i can hear how far the instruments are and i pay attention to the accuracy of how it sounds when the musicians fingers slide across the strings, where as my brother just say "i love this song". my brother in-law hates cilantro because it taste like soap to him, but i LOVE cilantro i think it gives a great flavor to many different foods. we all hear differently and we all have different pocket sizes if you want to pay $$$$$ for something that you think is the best, then go for it. my pocket barely allows me to pay $$$, so i have to find what i think is the best in my price range. But i have noticed a very strong separation in this hobby to include A LOT of bashing and insulting on other members of the community when we should be embracing more and new members with open arms, but in reality we are pushing anyone how does not agree with our ideas away. I love music and i love the idea of making my system better in anyway that i can. i hope to see my children and or friends do the same to help build this community even more. i have noticed that the people around you will start to get passionate about music also if your willing to help without lobbing insults.

Whilst I agree with the general thrust of what you're saying it isn't quite so simple. Eventually you get fed up with people writing cheques that can't be cashed.

Example - the other day I noticed someone on a forum stating that if you place your electronics on glass shelves it will make the sound 'cold and hard.' Because glass is cold and hard. Whereas wooden shelves will make the sound 'warm and organic' because etc.

Clearly nonsense, but to him it's a fact. This is the gulf you've got to bridge and IME it's pretty much impossible.