strange SMSL M500 high 3rd harmonic

[solderdude]

I'm very keen to see what will come out after the upgrading process and ... needless to say many many thanks to Prof.Wolf.

And @liu , after all he was the one that has discovered this error.

 

[nhs]

And @liu , after all he was the one that has discovered this error.

Thank you for mention our discoverer here. Of course my thank also goes to @liu

 

[liu]

And @liu , after all he was the one that has discovered this error.

Thank you for mention our discoverer here. Of course my thank also goes to @liu

You are welcome!

SMSL sent the same upgrade tool to me as well. It would take a week to get here (I'm don't live in China).
I will report once I have them in hand and do a few measurements after flashing the new firmware.

 

[solderdude]

Given the fact you need a tool and open up the device to fix this I wonder how SMSL is going to 'fix' this for customers.

 

[aandres_gm]

Given the fact you need a tool and open up the device to fix this I wonder how SMSL is going to 'fix' this for customers.

They probably won't, neither do they really need to, imo. A bunch of subjectivists on YouTube love the SU-9, because it is extremely musical, airy, easy, breezy, punchy on the low end, smooth, detailed, revealing, and whatever other adjectives you want to throw at it.

This may actually be the ultimate proof that "listening with your ears" is very much fail prone and very inaccurate.

 

[fluufy]

I wonder how SMSL is going to 'fix' this for customers.

SU9 looks easy enough, aside from the risk of bricking. M500 might be more interesting.

Under Australian Consumer Law, the retailer must repair, replace or refund any defective item they sell. If it is a “major failure” the consumer gets to choose, not the retailer - and “the goods are not as described” is explicitly a major failure. So in addition to some sort of repair kit SMSL will probably have to offer something to offset what will become a liability for their local resellers, maybe buy back returned stock or discount future orders.

Point is, in Australia at least, it’s the retailer who has to negotiate this with SMSL not the consumer, and that includes the likes of Amazon and Ebay as long as it was from their .com.au website. I could have saved fifty bucks by shopping at Shenzhen Audio but now I am glad I spent the extra to be covered by ACL. Having said all that, I’m not sure what the technical capacity of our local resellers is so I’ll probably choose refund on my M500 if there is disassembly involved.

 

[ceausuc]

This may actually be the ultimate proof that "listening with your ears" is very much fail prone and very inaccurate.

We are listening with what mother nature gave us
Now... this thread makes you wonder:
why do we chase more and more sinad when 75-80 seems enough?
why do we trash dacs with sinad=80?
and why not: what is the point of this ASR site with its sinad tops?

 

[solderdude]

Amir measures a lot of aspects. Among them SINAD.
Only very few 'chase' highest SINAD. Most don't but look at all measurements.
These days it is easy to get good measurements but one can only show this by independent measurements and by comparing gear on an equal playing field. That's what ASR is about. Not about SINAD.
If it were ASR would be named 'Audio SINAD Review'

 

[ceausuc]

Amir measures a lot of aspects. Among them SINAD.
Only very few 'chase' highest SINAD. Most don't but look at all measurements.

I just don't think this is true. Most people come here for buying advice.
Then they see the chart and buy one of the 'champions' in their budget
Or maybe I'm wrong.. don't know.

 

[Jimbob54]

Given the fact you need a tool and open up the device to fix this I wonder how SMSL is going to 'fix' this for customers.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[solderdude]

I just don't think this is true. Most people come here for buying advice.
Then they see the chart and buy one of the 'champions' in their budget
Or maybe I'm wrong.. don't know.

No different than looking at some YT video of a 'famous' reviewer or a total idiot and buy based on that.

Amir's recommendations are NEVER based on SINAD only. The one looking for advice should do proper research which never is taking someone's word for it. When someone doesn't understand specs and decices to look for the most affordable option on the left of a SINAD chart and not give the complete review a good read then that's up to them.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I just don't think this is true. Most people come here for buying advice.
Then they see the chart and buy one of the 'champions' in their budget
Or maybe I'm wrong.. don't know.

Maybe just take look at threads asking for purchasing advice.
I don't see too big of an issue buying best SINAD under certain budget. As long as it's within the budget. You get what you are paying for.

 

[Lupin]

I just don't think this is true. Most people come here for buying advice.
Then they see the chart and buy one of the 'champions' in their budget
Or maybe I'm wrong.. don't know.

I think the problem is that people see those charts and numbers but don't really understand them or know how to interpreted them correctly.
They come to false conclusions and everyone knows how it goes on the internet; if one screams hard enough and often enough it automatically becomes "the truth"... another misconception is brought into the world.

Also people seem to lose perspective when looking at all those numbers. DAC "Y" scores 0.002 lower then the top tier DAC "X" and immediately DAC "Y" is considered trash and a complete waste of money. Is the difference audible.. of course not but people get completely stuck on that 0.002 figure.
I remember that Amirm mentioned in one of the older reviews that the audible difference between two DACs was very subtle and probably unnoticeable for some untrained ears... one of the DACs had 1000x higher distortion then the other. So again perspective seems to be lost.

 

[fluufy]

As a designer I understand that we also listen with our eyes and hands. The design and feel of the product, the numbers we read, the money we spent, might not change the sound, but it changes what we hear. The brain is weird like that.

 

[Massimo]

SU9 looks easy enough, aside from the risk of bricking. M500 might be more interesting.

Under Australian Consumer Law, the retailer must repair, replace or refund any defective item they sell. If it is a “major failure” the consumer gets to choose, not the retailer - and “the goods are not as described” is explicitly a major failure. So in addition to some sort of repair kit SMSL will probably have to offer something to offset what will become a liability for their local resellers, maybe buy back returned stock or discount future orders.

Point is, in Australia at least, it’s the retailer who has to negotiate this with SMSL not the consumer, and that includes the likes of Amazon and Ebay as long as it was from their .com.au website. I could have saved fifty bucks by shopping at Shenzhen Audio but now I am glad I spent the extra to be covered by ACL. Having said all that, I’m not sure what the technical capacity of our local resellers is so I’ll probably choose refund on my M500 if there is disassembly involved.

Just curious ... what evidence can you provide to your retailer that there is a major failure with your SU9?

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

No different than looking at some YT video of a 'famous' reviewer or a total idiot and buy based on that.

Amir's recommendations are NEVER based on SINAD only. The one looking for advice should do proper research which never is taking someone's word for it. When someone doesn't understand specs and decices to look for the most affordable option on the left of a SINAD chart and not give the complete review a good read then that's up to them.

When it comes to measurements I’m perfectly happy to take Amir’s “word for it”. They are statements of fact after all, not his opinion.

I don’t think there was anything in any of his measurements that indicated a problem with these devices. I doubt that any amount of extra research would have uncovered the problem either.

 

[restorer-john]

what evidence can you provide to your retailer that there is a major failure with your SU9?

If it doesn't meet its advertised specifications in normal operation, that is enough for a refund or replacement at the customer's choice.

Many people in Australia do not understand how well we are protected under current ACL (Australian Consumer Law). It trumps anything a retailer or supplier might say otherwise.

 

[Massimo]

If it doesn't meet its advertised specifications in normal operation, that is enough for a refund or replacement at the customer's choice.

Many people in Australia do not understand how well we are protected under current ACL (Australian Consumer Law). It trumps anything a retailer or supplier might say otherwise.

But how do you demonstrate that it doesn't meet its advertised specification?

 

[restorer-john]

But how do you demonstrate that it doesn't meet its advertised specification?

Dazzle them with science, a few FFTs and some hand waving. No retailer is going to argue.

 

[jruser]

What's the relationship between Sabaj and SMSL? Still wondering about the D5