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JBL CBT 70JE-1 Review (CBT Bass Speaker)

Francis Vaughan

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I believe the distinction is there is a different crossover between the two sections that is employed only when the two units are connected. Makes sense, doesn't it?
My understanding is that there isn’t one. As I noted above the user manual has wiring diagrams for this and explicitly shows parallel wiring and no additional crossover. The bass unit is not intended for use in any other application except as an addition to the main unit.
https://jblpro.com/en/site_elements/cbt70j-70je-hookup-guide
 

MediumRare

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Francis Vaughan

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Checkmate
:cool:
It would still be interesting to see if a combined response calculation was possible. Amir probably doesn’t have a license for the capability and it is going to be a pretty low usage thing to pay for unless he decides to get into sound reinforcement system testing.
 

yourmando

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I've been reading Keele's papers, JBL tech docs, and watching lectures on CBT technology. Fascinating stuff!

I'm stumped on one thing--how do the bass extension modules technically work (phase & shading) in conjunction with the JBL CBT 70J and CBT 1000??

I'm wondering if any line array gurus such as @Bjorn , @Selah Audio , etc can shed some light or ideas?

Here's what I know, and what the JBL docs spec:

The main purpose of adding the 70JE or 1000E extension module to their base CBT module is to extend the +/- 20 degree vertical pattern control by doubling the length of the line array (it also doubles the power handling, etc.)
  • The CBT 70J has vertical pattern control down to 800hz. Adding the 70JE extension module extends the vertical beamwidth pattern control down to 400hz (with still good control below that w/ the vertical beamwidth gently widening and providing good attenuation off axis). Similarly, the CBT 1000 has pattern control down to 600hz and combining with the 1000E extension module extends the pattern control down to 300hz.
  • The FAQ states you can even add more modules, such as adding 2 more extension modules to double the length again and bringthe vertical width control down another octave (you'd have to add EQ though because the out of box EQ assumes it's alone, so w/ more woofers you need to EQ down some of the overlap).
  • The FAQ states the extension modules would even technically work on the other CBT lines, such as adding a 70JE to a CBT100LA-1, which uses completely different drivers and is a different width! (see FAQ snippets attached).
At first I assumed the CBT extension modules simply extended the phase delay and shading pattern of the base module CBT array. But this doesn't make sense upon further thought.

The JBT CBTs are "free standing" CBT arrays (as opposed to the ground plane version expects to be mirrored on a reflective surface).

This means that the center of the CBT "arc" is in the middle of the 70J or 1000 module, and as you move toward the ends of the array there is more phase delay and attenuation.

The attenuation at the ends of a CBT array is pretty substantial. Keele worked out a version that roughly approximates the Legandre shading, is less attenuated at the ends, and is quantized into 5 banks instead of continuous shading. Even in this less attenuated version, the drivers at the end of the arrays are -12db.

Screen Shot 2021-03-31 at 3.19.53 PM.png

So it seems unlikely that the added woofers are simply extending the 'arc' starting from -12db and attenuating even more from there to continue the shaded arc.

In fact, there can't be much shading or phase delay going on at all with the woofers. The 70J only has 4 woofers, so there would only be room for 2 banks of delay & shading! (For example the 2 middle woofers would be at 0db and 0 phase delay, leaving 1 more more step of attenuation and delay for the 2 end woofers). Keele's CBT arrays use much smaller drivers so both the woofers and tweeters can be bucketed into 5 banks with several drivers in each bank (each bank has the same shading).

So it also seems like most of the CBT behavior must come from the array of 16 or 24 tweeters (70J or 1000, respectively), which have enough drivers to start to simulate a shaded arc. So perhaps we have something like a frequency dependent shaded and delayed CBT array network.

This made me wonder how the extension modules, and the woofers in the base unit work.

Could the woofers + extension module simply be a straight (no delay) and unshaded line array?

I thought about that a bit, but it seems like a simple straight array wouldn't work because a straight (non-delayed) array does not have constant vertical pattern control. The phase delay/curve is necessary for this. A straight array would instead have vertical beamwidth halved with each doubling of frequency. (The curve angle controls the beamwidth, while the shading and center to center driver spacing control lobing/fingering issues. The vertical dispersion is controlled by arc degrees--vertical dispersion is about 64% of the arc degrees so a 20 degree vertical pattern needs an arc of about 31 degrees.)

Screen Shot 2021-03-31 at 3.27.06 PM.png

I'm not sure if it's even possible for the extension modules themselves can possibly be a CBT, because:
  • You can stack them in any order, and on either end (The CBT 1000E even has brackets available mount either on top or on bottom).
  • You don't have to flip the extension module depending on which end you stack it--so shading or phase can't go in one direction. The CBT1000E bracket manual shows the module being stacked on either end without having to flip it over to maintain a direction.
  • You can stack multiple of them, without having to keep track of which part of the 'arc' it belongs to.
  • When you add them, there's no switch or electronics activated to make the whole array reconfigure itself or change any settings. They are simply wired in parallel.
IMG_0323.png

So however the extension modules work, it seems pretty clever, and almost certainly has to be a simplified line array that somehow can build on the main module's CBT pattern control to extend vertical directivity, but without having to extend the line of tweeters, cutting costs (the extension module is 1/2 the cost of the base module).

In addition, even though these are not ground plane CBTs, putting these CBT + extension modules on a reflective ground plane would still double the length of the woofer arrays, just like doubling by adding bass extension module(s).

So it seems like you can get another octave lower of pattern control if you put this on the ground plane!?!

For example, if I have a the CBT 1000 + 1000E system on the ground, I have a slim tower that's nearly 7' tall, putting both seated and standing positions on axis. The main module controls vertical directivity +/- 20 degrees (-6db) down to 600hz, the extension module...extends the vertical pattern control down to 300hz, and the ground plane reflection doubles that whole thing bringing pattern control down to 150hz! Apparently I can add bass modules willy nilly, so this must work, right? (Again, this is not a ground plane CBT where the center of the 'arc' is at the floor, but if adding any number of bass modules extends pattern control, then I'm also doing that with the reflection.)

CBT 1000 Beamwidth.jpgCBT 1000 + 1000E Beamwidth.jpg

I just can't picture how the extension modules can seem to implement this behavior.

What phase delay and shading scheme could it be using, if any? Thoughts?

Screen Shot 2021-03-31 at 3.19.53 PM.pngScreen Shot 2021-03-31 at 3.27.06 PM.pngIMG_0323.pngCBT 1000 Beamwidth.jpgCBT 1000 + 1000E Beamwidth.jpg

I was scratching my head a bit about why JBL would make a long bass module if the only function is to increase SPL a bit.

I found the answer I the FAQ:

View attachment 119688

And indeed the spec sheet of the combined module lists the extended vertical pattern control as the key feature.

This is why the spinorama of the 70JE bass module by itself seems underwhelming.

To verify benefit of the extended pattern control, a spinorama of the combined stack would be required. This is because extending the vertical pattern control by another octave requires doubling the array height.

And doubling the height again with a total of 3 70JE bass modules would extend pattern control yet another octave, from the FAQ:

View attachment 119690

The attached charts show the biggest difference in the “vertical up” charts, where the attenuation is much greater at 400hz and lower with the combined stack.

To extend both bass and SPL, one could use the much larger CBT 1000 instead, which is 40” tall with larger woofers and more tweeters. It also comes with a companion bass module to extend pattern control even lower than the J0J + J0JE stack.

View attachment 119691View attachment 119692View attachment 119693
 
OP
amirm

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:cool:
It would still be interesting to see if a combined response calculation was possible. Amir probably doesn’t have a license for the capability and it is going to be a pretty low usage thing to pay for unless he decides to get into sound reinforcement system testing.
Yes that is an expensive add on which I don't have.
 

Selah Audio

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I've been reading Keele's papers, JBL tech docs, and watching lectures on CBT technology. Fascinating stuff!

I'm stumped on one thing--how do the bass extension modules technically work (phase & shading) in conjunction with the JBL CBT 70J and CBT 1000??

I'm wondering if any line array gurus such as @Bjorn , @Selah Audio , etc can shed some light or ideas?

Here's what I know, and what the JBL docs spec:

The main purpose of adding the 70JE or 1000E extension module to their base CBT module is to extend the +/- 20 degree vertical pattern control by doubling the length of the line array (it also doubles the power handling, etc.)
  • The CBT 70J has vertical pattern control down to 800hz. Adding the 70JE extension module extends the vertical beamwidth pattern control down to 400hz (with still good control below that w/ the vertical beamwidth gently widening and providing good attenuation off axis). Similarly, the CBT 1000 has pattern control down to 600hz and combining with the 1000E extension module extends the pattern control down to 300hz.
  • The FAQ states you can even add more modules, such as adding 2 more extension modules to double the length again and bringthe vertical width control down another octave (you'd have to add EQ though because the out of box EQ assumes it's alone, so w/ more woofers you need to EQ down some of the overlap).
  • The FAQ states the extension modules would even technically work on the other CBT lines, such as adding a 70JE to a CBT100LA-1, which uses completely different drivers and is a different width! (see FAQ snippets attached).
At first I assumed the CBT extension modules simply extended the phase delay and shading pattern of the base module CBT array. But this doesn't make sense upon further thought.

The JBT CBTs are "free standing" CBT arrays (as opposed to the ground plane version expects to be mirrored on a reflective surface).

This means that the center of the CBT "arc" is in the middle of the 70J or 1000 module, and as you move toward the ends of the array there is more phase delay and attenuation.

The attenuation at the ends of a CBT array is pretty substantial. Keele worked out a version that roughly approximates the Legandre shading, is less attenuated at the ends, and is quantized into 5 banks instead of continuous shading. Even in this less attenuated version, the drivers at the end of the arrays are -12db.

View attachment 121335

So it seems unlikely that the added woofers are simply extending the 'arc' starting from -12db and attenuating even more from there to continue the shaded arc.

In fact, there can't be much shading or phase delay going on at all with the woofers. The 70J only has 4 woofers, so there would only be room for 2 banks of delay & shading! (For example the 2 middle woofers would be at 0db and 0 phase delay, leaving 1 more more step of attenuation and delay for the 2 end woofers). Keele's CBT arrays use much smaller drivers so both the woofers and tweeters can be bucketed into 5 banks with several drivers in each bank (each bank has the same shading).

So it also seems like most of the CBT behavior must come from the array of 16 or 24 tweeters (70J or 1000, respectively), which have enough drivers to start to simulate a shaded arc. So perhaps we have something like a frequency dependent shaded and delayed CBT array network.

This made me wonder how the extension modules, and the woofers in the base unit work.

Could the woofers + extension module simply be a straight (no delay) and unshaded line array?

I thought about that a bit, but it seems like a simple straight array wouldn't work because a straight (non-delayed) array does not have constant vertical pattern control. The phase delay/curve is necessary for this. A straight array would instead have vertical beamwidth halved with each doubling of frequency. (The curve angle controls the beamwidth, while the shading and center to center driver spacing control lobing/fingering issues. The vertical dispersion is controlled by arc degrees--vertical dispersion is about 64% of the arc degrees so a 20 degree vertical pattern needs an arc of about 31 degrees.)

View attachment 121337

I'm not sure if it's even possible for the extension modules themselves can possibly be a CBT, because:
  • You can stack them in any order, and on either end (The CBT 1000E even has brackets available mount either on top or on bottom).
  • You don't have to flip the extension module depending on which end you stack it--so shading or phase can't go in one direction. The CBT1000E bracket manual shows the module being stacked on either end without having to flip it over to maintain a direction.
  • You can stack multiple of them, without having to keep track of which part of the 'arc' it belongs to.
  • When you add them, there's no switch or electronics activated to make the whole array reconfigure itself or change any settings. They are simply wired in parallel.
View attachment 121338

So however the extension modules work, it seems pretty clever, and almost certainly has to be a simplified line array that somehow can build on the main module's CBT pattern control to extend vertical directivity, but without having to extend the line of tweeters, cutting costs (the extension module is 1/2 the cost of the base module).

In addition, even though these are not ground plane CBTs, putting these CBT + extension modules on a reflective ground plane would still double the length of the woofer arrays, just like doubling by adding bass extension module(s).

So it seems like you can get another octave lower of pattern control if you put this on the ground plane!?!

For example, if I have a the CBT 1000 + 1000E system on the ground, I have a slim tower that's nearly 7' tall, putting both seated and standing positions on axis. The main module controls vertical directivity +/- 20 degrees (-6db) down to 600hz, the extension module...extends the vertical pattern control down to 300hz, and the ground plane reflection doubles that whole thing bringing pattern control down to 150hz! Apparently I can add bass modules willy nilly, so this must work, right? (Again, this is not a ground plane CBT where the center of the 'arc' is at the floor, but if adding any number of bass modules extends pattern control, then I'm also doing that with the reflection.)

View attachment 121342View attachment 121343

I just can't picture how the extension modules can seem to implement this behavior.

What phase delay and shading scheme could it be using, if any? Thoughts?

View attachment 121335View attachment 121337View attachment 121338View attachment 121342View attachment 121343
For home use the ground plane arrays work best if you want to control the directivity to a lower frequency. With the JBL arrays I think their main focus was maximizing the throw for vocals and speech. They also needed some flexibility for the various situations / spaces where the arrays would be installed. Maybe we need to do a ASR CBT?
 

yourmando

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For home use the ground plane arrays work best if you want to control the directivity to a lower frequency. With the JBL arrays I think their main focus was maximizing the throw for vocals and speech. They also needed some flexibility for the various situations / spaces where the arrays would be installed. Maybe we need to do a ASR CBT?

Yes, it seems a tall ground plane version of a CBT that is 6’ or 7’ tall would probably be best to control vertical directivity down very low. With the ground reflection we get to around 150hz of perfect vertical control to a desired beamwidth with a gentle widening as we get below that.

I’m curious how JBL is able to implement their extension modules on free standing CBTs because they seem to be able to still extend pattern control to the same target with just more woofers (and some clever delay + shading scheme no doubt). If you were to use really expensive tweeters such as fancy planar/ribbons, you’d only need to use half and not run them all the way to the floor.

Either way, with a ground plane or floor standing CBT, I really like the module concept.

It could have feasible to have a complete CBT surround setup with its “constant level” benefits and well as constant directivity. A single module could be used as surrounds, a double module as mains, etc.

Yes, we need to make an ASR CBT!
 

test1223

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From the pictures inside the CBT 70J you can see that the two upper woofers and two lower woofer are grouped both in series.
I see some questions by folk asking why the a type of design isn’t more common among manufacturers. My guess is the complexity. Complexity adds cost and time, and potential for failure.



I mentioned in post 50 that since I had bought my original 13 used, I had 10 of the 13 speakers that had a failed 8 ohm sandbox resister. ( I also got one that appeared to be seriously overpowered and caught fire inside, I returned that one for a replacement)

Here is that saga. (Got it all figured out with amazing community support from people so much more knowledgeable than me)

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/jbl-crossover-issue-polarity-seeking-help.3007478/



Suffice to say there is a very complicated crossover, and there are well over a hundred screws in each speaker, complicated wiring harnesses, loads of drivers to test in each speaker (20 drivers per speaker), assembly, and testing of each speaker therefore more complicated. Think how much more complicated this design is compared to a traditional monopole two or three way speaker. Complicated to design, complicated to manufacture, complicated to assemble, complicated to solder, complicated to troubleshoot, expensive to warranty/support.



Crossover board:120059



pulled apart

120060



Tweeters removed for testing one speaker that had a dissimilar high frequency response, and I had to work through troubleshooting that.

32 screws to take the speaker apart and get to the main crossover board, 8 screws holding in the crossover board, 16 screws holding in the tweeter PCB panel, 16 screws for the four 5" woofers, 64 screws for the sixteen 1" tweeters. (and a few more various screws to hold in the varying wiring harnesses.) I assume these are human assembled. That's a lot of time testing, and just screwing stuff just for one speaker.

The screws in the two boxes are JUST the screws for a single speaker's tweeter array alone! o_O

120061



Post 60 here documents a call to JBL support, and attests to how complicated troubleshooting this design is:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/jb...ity-seeking-help.3007478/page-3#post-56996854



Given all this, it's kind of a minor wonder JBL can sell these at a MSRP as low as they do.
Therefore the only two options for the woofer crossover are
a) a different crossover for the two upper an the two lower woofers or
b) one crossover for all woofers, which is unlikely since they wouldn't use four wires.

It is hard to guess the crossover of the tweeter array form the pictures.
 

G|force

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I’m delighted to see the JBL CBT-70 with extension cabs tested.
It’s a dream relived, actually. This room, these speakers. (QSC 8050HD amps x4 behind Symetrix Jupiter 8 behind an analog Soundcraft console, what did they call them, SFX?
Anyone in the Dayton, Ohio area can experience (4) of these CBT arrays in a very well built room with good treatment.
The 70’s with extensions are placed in the cavities shown here. 2013, thats me at Funny Bone installing them. When we were finished and came back with clean clothes before the soft open, we took turns standing on stage crawling into a SM58 and it was glorious. I don’t do that work anymore, and the company had dissolved, but in the 8 years of installing systems, this is one of the best we ever built.
 

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nerdoldnerdith

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I think the purpose of this unit is to provide vertical directivity control down another octave rather than provide more bass extension. It'd be nice to see both units measured together.

I'm very curious about how these speakers would work for a home theater. The constant SPL means you could sit anywhere in the theater and get the correct volume level from each speaker.
 
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Not impressive at all on it's own, but I suppose it synergises with the other module in terms of fitting in with the CBT technology......yes bass extension really quite poor.

Doubling the height only drops the directivity cutoff by a single octave. So, yes, the measured difference won't be night and day.

I believe a lot of these speakers wound up in actual movie theaters. That makes a lot of sense there, where the ceiling is so tall.

IE, if you put one of these in a room with ceilings that are three meters tall, the ceiling itself will prevent the radiation from going spherical at low frequencies. You will have floor and ceiling bounce.

If you put one of these in a room with ceilings that are nine meters tall, the low frequencies will be spherical and this will radiate a lot of low frequency energy where you don't want it. (Such as the the theaters to the left and to the right.

So in it's intended home - a movie theater - it makes sense.

kXPLYyI.jpg


I've been considering buying some for my home, my ceilings are around eight or nine meters tall. I have a HUGE issue with sound radiating from the living room into the upper floors. In my bedroom, the speakers in the living room often sound louder in my bedroom than in the living room! Because in the living room there's stuff to absorb the sound (couches, blankets, a rug), but the sound radiated UP has a straight line from the speaker to the door of my bedroom, literally zero obstructions whatsoever.
 
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I think the purpose of this unit is to provide vertical directivity control down another octave rather than provide more bass extension. It'd be nice to see both units measured together.

I'm very curious about how these speakers would work for a home theater. The constant SPL means you could sit anywhere in the theater and get the correct volume level from each speaker.

I've heard the Dayton CBTs and it's quite wild; you can put your head up against the speaker, then walk to the middle of the room, and the SPL level doesn't really change.

I've built a lot of Unity horns and the phenomenon is nearly the opposite; with Unity horns, they get LOUD when you're up close, but you get off axis and the sound almost disappears. And when you walk away from the speaker, the SPL level falls off quickly. This, of course, is because the wavefront is spherical and symmetrical. In a conventional two way, the horizontal radiation is a cylinder for some frequencies, then goes spherical at around 500hz or so. Because the radiation varies with frequency, you don't get the dramatic drop in SPL that you get with a Unity horn, but you ALSO don't get the dramatic LACK of a drop off that you get with a CBT. Conventional two-ways are a little bit of both, but mostly radiate spherically.

To be specific:

1) in a two way, the radiation is spherical when the wavefronts are larger than the woofer. IE, about 2000hz and lower

2) in a two way, the wavefront shape is quite a mess in the octave around the xover point. So the point from about 1400Hz to 2800Hz is generally quite ugly, radiation wise. And unfortunately, these are also the frequencies that we're most sensitive to

3) in a two way, the wavefront shape is mostly spherical from about 2800Hz to 10khz

4) above 10khz, the wavefront gets very narrow, because the wavefronts are smaller than the radiator/tweeter
 
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