McGurk can’t be applied to HiFi

[pkane]

they are very conscious. I know what influences me, but less so since reviewing as I have no motives to want it to be better at price or whatnot. I deconstructed that auditory memory point in the last post because if I put you in a concert hall blindfolded, then move you to home listening to hifi, you’d know Where you are. The question of extent to that point must by implication, be a more valid one.

You misunderstand the nature of biases and vastly overestimate your ability to be aware of and to control what your subconscious is doing. This is Psych 101 material, so maybe you should do some research before posting an opinion on the subject?

 

[Jimbob54]

Its not the brain pathways that affect what we hear but how the auditory cortex must relate to the other parts of the brain - the memory centres to recognise them and so on. So for instance if I’m really tired and walking up a hill and I see the hill as steep I will see it the same steepness but my interpretation will say that’s a really steep hill. Thats where the bias comes in.

I hear this debate in hifi a lot and I think it’s a mis understanding of the biology of how we work. So my brain pathway hasn't effected how steep it is. Can you imagine, if it started walking and it went from 30 degrees to 50 degrees and I gave up walking on a easy scramble. Our environment would be very failed if that were the case.

I watched a bit of JJ Johnston’s but gave up - this isn’t applying biology. He says initially that if you concentrate on one thing you will remember one thing and that’s why you need to do double blind. Total horsesh1t , sorry. what if you arent concentrating on one thing. What if when I eat a steak I concentrate on the sauce, how it’s cooked, the cut and so on. I fail to understand how people are taken in by this?

Please stop dismissing the actual experts, it really is disrespectful. And please stop bringing in the food/ restaurant analogies, it does you no favours.

 

[Simon 13th]

You can believe that all you want.. that doesn’t make it true.



No, you just trawmened your way out it it..

that doesn’t provide a line of discussion I can work with.

 

[Simon 13th]

Please stop dismissing the actual experts, it really is disrespectful. And please stop bringing in the food/ restaurant analogies, it does you no favours.

you should have said flavours. Lol.

in all seriousness though, I don’t believe just because people exclaim themselves to be experts.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Its not the brain pathways that affect what we hear but how the auditory cortex must relate to the other parts of the brain - the memory centres to recognise them and so on. So for instance if I’m really tired and walking up a hill and I see the hill as steep I will see it the same steepness but my interpretation will say that’s a really steep hill. Thats where the bias comes in.

yeah, and your bias doesn't change the actual steepness of the hill. We can measure the actual steepness of the hill. It is what it is. So when you come onto a forum and claim that one hill is way steeper than that other hill you climbed 3 weeks ago, we can say no, it's not. That's just your bias talking.

 

[Koeitje]

i don’t think the human brain is fooled. The point of the article too was you can’t extrapolate one known mechanism carte Blanche to such thinking. Much like say the knee jerk reflex, which is a known pathway.

In saying common sense is such that if you are alive to what biases their might be - wanting it to be better for more money, brand name, price and so on, and look at it objectively.

The brain is being fooled all the time. Its clear you don't have basic understanding of what the brain is capable doing. For example, have you ever noticed you always see your own nose? Your brain just ignores it. Or what about those with phantom limb sensations. It can also make you ignore pain and just push through. Change blindness is also a massive effect that everybody has to deal with.

The knee jerk reflex is good example of how you don't control your brain. You cannot simply turn off certain processes and preconceptions.

There is only ONE way to look at it objectively and that is by controlled blind tests. We already had this discussion and even then it became clear to me you don't believe in things like the placebo effect. Thank god you aren't in a medical profession because that would spell disaster for all of us.

 

[Simon 13th]

You misunderstand the nature of biases and vastly overestimate your ability to be aware of and to control what your subconscious is doing. This is Psych 101 material, so maybe you should do some research before posting an opinion on the subject?

Yes but you are missing how the use of the sub conscious comes in to give bias. I’m out walking .I hear an owl. I don’t hear a dog as to my bias as to what I hear. Just the same way if you turn a hifi up or down I hear no bias in volume. So how would bias happen in the qualitative difference experience of a hifi. If we are talking about x hifi and y and the two are way apart. I’m not into the minutiae of subtle differences hifi, I want something big (in audiophile terms), so how would any bias come in?

 

[Jimbob54]

you should have said flavours. Lol.

in all seriousness though, I don’t believe just because people exclaim themselves to be experts.

I think we are done here.

 

[BDWoody]

I fail to understand

Seems that way.

We can provide explanations, but unfortunately the understanding part is up to you.

Are you actually trying to understand, or are you here, again, to tell us how dumb we are?

Also, if you're going to call 'horseshit' on a true, industry recognized expert, because in 'your experience' and based on your 'common sense' you disagree, you aren't going to do very well here.

 

[GGroch]

I watched a bit of JJ Johnston’s but gave up.....

Well Simon, his section is all of 4 minutes. If you do not have 4 minutes to consider an alternative view this discussion is certainly futile.

You misunderstand the concept of bias. You say you are very conscious of bias and know what influences you, but that is not what bias is. Bias is the sum total of our previous experiences. You wouldn't recognize an owl was an owl unless you had previous interaction with the concept.

I'm an old man and my previous experiences did not allow me to recognize a troll as quickly as I should have. But, I am learning.

 

[Simon 13th]

Seems that way.

We can provide explanations, but unfortunately the understanding part is up to you.

Are you actually trying to understand, or are you here, again, to tell us how dumb we are?

Also, if you're going to call 'horseshit' on a true, industry recognized expert, because in 'your experience' and based on your 'common sense' you disagree, you aren't going to do very well here.

im up for a sensible debate. I

 

[JeffS7444]

Yes but you are missing how the use of the sub conscious comes in to give bias. I’m out walking .I hear an owl. I don’t hear a dog as to my bias as to what I hear. Just the same way if you turn a hifi up or down I hear no bias in volume. So how would bias happen in the qualitative difference experience of a hifi. If we are talking about x hifi and y and the two are way apart. I’m not into the minutiae of subtle differences hifi, I want something big (in audiophile terms), so how would any bias come in?

Have you tested your beliefs with Pure Listening Tests? Always best to allow for the possibility that your beliefs to date have been faulty.

 

[pkane]

Yes but you are missing how the use of the sub conscious comes in to give bias. I’m out walking .I hear an owl. I don’t hear a dog as to my bias as to what I hear. Just the same way if you turn a hifi up or down I hear no bias in volume. So how would bias happen in the qualitative difference experience of a hifi. If we are talking about x hifi and y and the two are way apart. I’m not into the minutiae of subtle differences hifi, I want something big (in audiophile terms), so how would any bias come in?

Simple: the differences are usually really minor when doing a controlled comparison or a measurement of DACs, cables, power supplies, etc. Your bias is to expect them to be large, but you ignore it, and instead, are trying to convince others.

 

[Koeitje]

Yes but you are missing how the use of the sub conscious comes in to give bias. I’m out walking .I hear an owl. I don’t hear a dog as to my bias as to what I hear. Just the same way if you turn a hifi up or down I hear no bias in volume. So how would bias happen in the qualitative difference experience of a hifi. If we are talking about x hifi and y and the two are way apart. I’m not into the minutiae of subtle differences hifi, I want something big (in audiophile terms), so how would any bias come in?

Can I ask what your background is in terms of education?

 

[Simon 13th]

The brain is being fooled all the time. Its clear you don't have basic understanding of what the brain is capable doing. For example, have you ever noticed you always see your own nose? Your brain just ignores it. Or what about those with phantom limb sensations. It can also make you ignore pain and just push through. Change blindness is also a massive effect that everybody has to deal with.

The knee jerk reflex is good example of how you don't control your brain. You cannot simply turn off certain processes and preconceptions.

There is only ONE way to look at it objectively and that is by controlled blind tests. We already had this discussion and even then it became clear to me you don't believe in things like the placebo effect. Thank god you aren't in a medical profession because that would spell disaster for all of us.

thats because it’s in not in the periphery of vision I think. If you are right eye dominate you will see the right side of the nose unless its broken to the left lol. I know this from parallax playing snooker and snooker coaching. The limb sensations are interesting like the rubber hand technique. thats because of a really strong motor neural pathway I think and like McGurk the eyes dominance over touch - but it comes from a known pathway and phenomenon. Again the knee jerk reflex applies to one pathway. Just like such circular pathways in whales for evolutionary reasons. Again you don’t apply a known pathway generically.

 

[ahofer]

Its not the brain pathways that affect what we hear but how the auditory cortex must relate to the other parts of the brain - the memory centres to recognise them and so on. So for instance if I’m really tired and walking up a hill and I see the hill as steep I will see it the same steepness but my interpretation will say that’s a really steep hill. Thats where the bias comes in.

I hear this debate in hifi a lot and I think it’s a mis understanding of the biology of how we work. So my brain pathway hasn't effected how steep it is. Can you imagine, if I started walking and it went from 30 degrees to 50 degrees because, as you say, it was inter-related, and I gave up walking on a easy scramble. Our environment would be very degraded if that were the case. Think how much it could apply to mess up your everyday life.

I watched a bit of JJ Johnston’s but gave up - this isn’t applying biology. He says initially that if you concentrate on one thing you will remember one thing and that’s why you need to do double blind. Total horsesh1t , sorry. what if you arent concentrating on one thing. What if when I eat a steak I concentrate on the sauce, how it’s cooked, the cut and so on. I fail to understand how people are taken in by this?

Muted for too many complete red herrings.

 

[Koeitje]

thats because it’s in not in the periphery of vision I think. If you are right eye dominate you will see the right side of the nose unless its broken to the left lol. I know this from parallax playing snooker and snooker coaching. The limb sensations are interesting like the rubber hand technique. thats because of a really strong motor neural pathway I think and like McGurk the eyes dominance over touch - but it comes from a known pathway and phenomenon. Again the knee jerk reflex applies to one pathway. Just like such circular pathways in whales for evolutionary reasons. Again you don’t apply a known pathway generically.

Your nose is in your periphery vision (at least for many of us). I don't get where you are going with the rest of your collection of words. You seem to be ignoring the essence of this "discussion".

 

[ahofer]

yeah, and your bias doesn't change the actual steepness of the hill. We can measure the actual steepness of the hill. It is what it is. So when you come onto a forum and claim that one hill is way steeper than that other hill you climbed 3 weeks ago, we can say no, it's not. That's just your bias talking.

This tickled my funny bone. Thanks.

 

[Simon 13th]

Your nose is in your periphery vision (at least for many of us). I don't get where you are going with the rest of your collection of words. You seem to be ignoring the essence of this "discussion".

yes that’s what I meant sorry. Take out not.

 

[Simon 13th]

This tickled my funny bone. Thanks.

ah no but what I’d say, being alive to the fact I’m knackered is, is it really steeper ? I’d check myself on that and I wouldn’t have another hill next to me maybe. I’d have to get home to stare out my back yard looking at two hills with two hifi systems. Lol.