Amir vs. Abyss: The Battle We Need

[ahofer]

By reading the following you can say that you know more than even Paul from P.S. Audio!

Can we set the bar a little higher?

 

[scott wurcer]

Other members will have some interesting discussion points in response, but before this train leaves the station it will be helpful to understand why you selected these devices in the first place.

Yes, the DAC blurb says you don't need a pre-amp and the pre-amp says it has a DAC module available. The pre-amp has neat looking VU meters sort of like small versions on a Bentley dashboard.

 

[Racheski]

I'm more wondering if the OP simply googled "most expensivest audio shit" and decided to troll ASR.

 

[Jimbob54]

Sock. Puppet.

 

[amirm]

Abyss thinks every single thing matters to sound quality, and they talk for hours about this. Amir thinks (mostly) that only the measurements matter.

Interesting summary. Do you think the color of my socks matter to sound? How about what pants I wear? Do they believe that changes sound? I assume the answer is no. My question is why? If everything matters, why don't these matter? Maybe what I ate before listening changes my hearing sensitivity so that matters too. You see the problem with "everything matters" argument? Clearly at some point you draw the line. You use some logic to get to that level of dismissal. What we do here is arm you with more knowledge so that the bar lifts quite a bit higher and well above where the Abyss folks may be.

As for me, I listen a ton. Two thirds of my reviews have listening tests them. If you can get the other camp to come half way toward accepting engineering and research, then we won't have as many of these arguments.

But sure, I am game for any online discussion or video.

 

[Jimbob54]

Interesting summary. Do you think the color of my socks matter to sound? How about what pants I wear? Do they believe that changes sound? I assume the answer is no. My question is why? If everything matters, why don't these matter? Maybe what I ate before listening changes my hearing sensitivity so that matters too. You see the problem with "everything matters" argument? Clearly at some point you draw the line. You use some logic to get to that level of dismissal. What we do here is arm you with more knowledge so that the bar lifts quite a bit higher and well above where the Abyss folks may be.

As for me, I listen a ton. Two thirds of my reviews have listening tests them. If you can get the other camp to come half way toward accepting engineering and research, then we won't have as many of these arguments.

But sure, I am game for any online discussion or video.

 

[HiFidFan]

But sure, I am game for any online discussion or video.

I'd watch that

 

[Budgeter]

With all of my respect, I will say this is just another unnecessary discussion. Just buy whatever makes you happy. If you enjoy the money you spent, then good for you. Blind testing or not, why must you care?

I have no knowledge in acoustics, but with a background in computer science, I usually work with data and graph, along with electronics in computing world. I value the measurement, however, in daily life there can be compromise in this regard. If I buy a badly measured device but It sounds "good" to me, then I hit a jackpot (although ideally a decoder should preserve information 100%). As you said, I'm happy to have a placebo which can pump up a $4 device to a $16k one, but I will never argue in public that a $4 one is a good or best device. It's good for me, but not the other, so they have to decide themselves.

As of now, my daily driver is Topping D10 + Atom + 58x simply because they work for me, and that's all. Now let say some time in a future Amir measures 58x and it goes into the worst category, will I disgust my own 58x? You got the answer.

 

[Somafunk]

wow, you’re in a very fortunate position, i’d love to have £70k to spend on hifi. I’d spend a large chunk of that on room acoustics, nice comfortable furniture to relax in, then worry about the hifi which would consist of active monitors, some sort of streaming device and Nas/roon core, new iPad Pro so I could browse ASR, lifetime subscription to roon/tidal whatever and with the £40k to £50k left over I’d spend it all on stuff that gives me shits n’ giggles. (Which given my previous form would probably involve a barrel all to myself of single malt speyside whisky and copious amounts of psychedelics)

 

[wwenze]

I propose an easier test

Request a whole bunch of manufacturers and DIYers to send you their unmarked cables. Then after you score them and upload the result in a password-protected zip file, tell them to reveal their asking prices.

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

One of us is missing something here. Probably me.

If measurement were all that mattered there would be no reason for double-blind testing, because that's subjective.

It would just be a matter of figuring out which measurements a particular person liked better.

Most people possessed by ideological dogma miss lots of gray reality in between the black and white - in my opinion - we all have cognitive biases; some we are aware of, some we can become aware of, and many we will always be blind to.


I liked your point, and it has been made by others on the forum often - measurements do can not explain or measure everything that exists. If you believe that they do (that measurements describe everything that is needed) then you do not understand science, or history, or engineering, or physics, or etc etc etc....... Measurements, what is measured, how it is measured, follow and support the science, but they do not define it. As science moves forward new instruments and measurement methods are invented in pace with the science to support and prove the new findings. With what we now know, to the best of our understanding we think....etc.

I think the fields of medicine, science, engineering, etc mostly work forwards from an existing body of knowledge. Innovation often occurs when the fundamental principles developed from this body of knowledge, are then used to re-imagine these paradigms and solve ""the problem"" in new ways. Out of the box thinking, creativity, insight - all personality traits not commonly found in many of those who occupy the dogmatic position of ""if you cannot measure it - it doesn't exist"".

Historically, for centuries real innovation and growth in understanding have been repressed by people unable to imagine or believe or perhaps understand something new was possible, many of these believed that science and measurements were sufficient to explain the ""objective"" reality they thought they were observing (the bias they were unable to be aware of). To a person from the dark ages we would all look like gods or wizards or aliens (belief) when we are merely in possession of advanced technology (understanding).

Sun orbiting the earth versus earth orbiting the sun for example. Those unable to understand the science which proved that the earth orbits the sun, persecuted the ones who understood this, because it conflicted with their ignorant and fixed beliefs (mindset, dogma, ideology).

My point is if you think everything that matters in the audio world is defined or known - you are equivalent to a flat-earther. Enjoy your beliefs but do not presume to call them understanding or knowledge.

Some fantastic conversations to start might be;

• what exists that current steady state measurements do not describe but our hearing can reliably perceive
• what areas lack a good deep body of research to support the current understanding
• where are the overlaps between what one can perceive and what can be measured
• and on and on - basically what do we not know and how could we better understand these things?

Toole, Olive, Geddes, et al did not start from a place of everything is known therefore nothing is left to discover.


Example:

Everyone (almost everyone) on here told me if an amplifier is not clipping, ie operating linearly then it is impossible to perceive an audible difference. Yet I have been able to pass the blind test and disprove this common generalisation (myth?). In free field conditions 2 x amps in mono (AHB2) is so audibly superior to 2 amps in stereo (in blind testing), that one wonders how those who think otherwise can hear anything at all? Waiting for some more fine weather to record some audio of each setup to share on here and see what the poll says - who can hear and who cannot.

My point is if I believed everything I was told, read, saw, thought, felt - I would have not learned or experienced or grown as much as was possible with an ongoing practice of critical thought, trying to maintain an open mind, increasing my awareness of my bias, etc etc etc.

Where ASR misses the mark IMO is when the standard response starts to resemble dogma. Watch and wait, guaranteed someone will illustrate my point before too long.......

 

[Jimbob54]

So much hand waving we fail to smell the bullshit under our noses.

 

[HiFidFan]

Most people possessed by ideological dogma miss lots of gray reality in between the black and white - in my opinion - we all have cognitive biases; some we are aware of, some we can become aware of, and many we will always be blind to.


I liked your point, and it has been made by others on the forum often - measurements do can not explain or measure everything that exists. If you believe that they do (that measurements describe everything that is needed) then you do not understand science, or history, or engineering, or physics, or etc etc etc....... Measurements, what is measured, how it is measured, follow and support the science, but they do not define it. As science moves forward new instruments and measurement methods are invented in pace with the science to support and prove the new findings. With what we now know, to the best of our understanding we think....etc.

I think the fields of medicine, science, engineering, etc mostly work forwards from an existing body of knowledge. Innovation often occurs when the fundamental principles developed from this body of knowledge, are then used to re-imagine these paradigms and solve ""the problem"" in new ways. Out of the box thinking, creativity, insight - all personality traits not commonly found in many of those who occupy the dogmatic position of ""if you cannot measure it - it doesn't exist"".

Historically, for centuries real innovation and growth in understanding have been repressed by people unable to imagine or believe or perhaps understand something new was possible, many of these believed that science and measurements were sufficient to explain the ""objective"" reality they thought they were observing (the bias they were unable to be aware of). To a person from the dark ages we would all look like gods or wizards or aliens (belief) when we are merely in possession of advanced technology (understanding).

Sun orbiting the earth versus earth orbiting the sun for example. Those unable to understand the science which proved that the earth orbits the sun, persecuted the ones who understood this, because it conflicted with their ignorant and fixed beliefs (mindset, dogma, ideology).

My point is if you think everything that matters in the audio world is defined or known - you are equivalent to a flat-earther. Enjoy your beliefs but do not presume to call them understanding or knowledge.

Some fantastic conversations to start might be;

• what exists that current steady state measurements do not describe but our hearing can reliably perceive
• what areas lack a good deep body of research to support the current understanding
• where are the overlaps between what one can perceive and what can be measured
• and on and on - basically what do we not know and how could we better understand these things?

Toole, Olive, Geddes, et al did not start from a place of everything is known therefore nothing is left to discover.


Example:

Everyone (almost everyone) on here told me if an amplifier is not clipping, ie operating linearly then it is impossible to perceive an audible difference. Yet I have been able to pass the blind test and disprove this common generalisation (myth?). In free field conditions 2 x amps in mono (AHB2) is so audibly superior to 2 amps in stereo (in blind testing), that one wonders how those who think otherwise can hear anything at all? Waiting for some more fine weather to record some audio of each setup to share on here and see what the poll says - who can hear and who cannot.

My point is if I believed everything I was told, read, saw, thought - I would have not learned or experienced or grown as much as I have been able to thanks to critical thought, trying to maintain an open mind, increasing my awareness of my bias, etc etc etc.

You mean, the science isn't settled?

Excellent post.

 

[Sukie]

Everyone (almost everyone) on here told me if an amplifier is not clipping, ie operating linearly then it is impossible to perceive an audible difference. Yet I have been able to pass the blind test and disprove this common generalisation (myth?). In free field conditions 2 x amps in mono (AHB2) is so audibly superior in blind testing, that one wonders how those who think otherwise can hear anything at all? Waiting for some more fine weather to record some audio of each setup to share on here and see what the poll says - who can hear and who cannot

I would be interested to see these results published and peer reviewed.

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

You mean, the science isn't settled?

Excellent post.

The science is never settled - if it is or can be then I would suggest that it is not science.......

I would be interested to see these results published and peer reviewed.

You got here faster than expected......but I sincerely thank you for making my point.

 

[Helicopter]

I bet Focal Sopra no 2s are excellent. I wouldn't discourage getting those. I love my Focal speakers and the company has the right engineering philosophy for performance.

 

[Sukie]

You got here faster than expected......but I sincerely thank you for making my point.

Just to be clear, my point was sceptical. In the absence of publication and peer review I, and others, cannot comment on the validity of your findings.

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

Just to be clear, my point was sceptical. In the absence of publication and peer review I, and others, cannot comment on the validity of your findings.

Just to be clear, if that is your response, perhaps you did not understand what I was really trying to say - think of it as a test......

 

[Sukie]

You mean, the science isn't settled?

Excellent post.

The fact that science is never settled does not stop us from reaching scientifically informed conclusions. These conclusions can only be overturned by additional research and evidence.

 

[wwenze]

Nobody understands why gravity works, nor even realized it is a thing until 1687

But it can explain even prior observations and so people went like "damnnnnnnn". And then somebody threw an apple and it fell and people were like "damnnnnnnn"

Point is, the scientific method is just about the repeatability of observation. And that was all that James Randi was asking for.