DACs and midrange performance (i.e. voices playback)

[Blumlein 88]

Here is at least an ungimmicked recording. Not sure it is the best transfer to youtube.
It was recorded with one pair of quality microphones, custom built tube electronics and no processing was done.

 

[gino1961]

Your voice will always sound different to you when recorded. Benchmark got a great reputation around hire for the products that were mesured. I don't know about those speakers but they don't look all that great to me. As they are rated at 86 dB LPS even if they sound great you don't need great DAC for them. The rest is commodity. Anyway you will have most real improvement with better speakers that can go louder and deaper. All do opinions differ I like good old paper cones one's especially for mids. Regarding this particular recording problem is in it.

Hi thanks a lot. I will look to new speakers then I have noticed one trend. Paper cones were more common in the past. Now cones are mainly made out of some treated plastic ... another thing i notice is that cones in pro speakers are almost always in paper ... there must be a reason.

 

[LightninBoy]

Hi ! sorry for my ramblings ... but yesterday i was listening to my old Benchmark dac 1 (the very first edition) to this cd

what a beauty of cd track .... amazing indeed.
maybe it is the lockdown .... but i found the quality of the recorded singer's voice even moving for realism and passion.
Nevertheless the midrange was marred with some harshness ... it was not as smooth as i would like Not spooky realistic as it should be
I am quite sure it is not the recording ... it is the dac !

My 2 cents: I'm quite sure it IS the recording. That vocal sounds *heavily* processed to me. Lots of compression for sure, probably eq and maybe even some mild distortion (which could come from the EQ or compression if they are analog). There's also significantly more reverb on the vocal, which IMO always takes away the realism of the ensemble being in the room with you. It sounds good, but realistic it is not. I'm sure it was an artistic choice as the piano and bass sound very natural (and amazing). Cool track, but I wouldn't use it to evaluate vocal realism.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Blumlein 88 that's not a reference, she sounds great on almost everything. She who's my first though also.

 

[gino1961]

Here is at least an ungimmicked recording. Not sure it is the best transfer to youtube.
It was recorded with one pair of quality microphones, custom built tube electronics and no processing was done. ...

Thank you very much I think i have some Chesky Records of Ana Caram ... this one https://chesky.com/products/the-other-side-of-jobim-ana-caram-download
i guess the quality should be similar ... i will use that one then for voice check You mention tube electronics ... i do not want to go OT ... but i understand the message
I will listen to this SMSL ... maybe it will be my last dac The review is very positive The price no brain ...

 

[ZolaIII]

Hi thanks a lot. I will look to new speakers then I have noticed one trend. Paper cones were more common in the past. Now cones are mainly made out of some treated plastic ... another thing i notice is that cones in pro speakers are almost always in paper ... there must be a reason.

It's not the low or anything, just my personal opinion. Unfortunately now is not a good time to buy speakers as that requires auditioning. Try to see what you can find locally from Dynacord one's with Fostex (Foster) cones and see how you like the sound of them.

 

[Mnyb]

It's hard for us to asume anything about the recordings I for example does not have the experience of live recording as some posters here actually have , recordings are not perfect they are often mixed and balanced on imperfect eqipment too.

And its also some fallacies built in to our assumptions ......

Hifi should sound good ? why if the recording is s**t propper hifi presents its like that , learn to live with the recordings all sounds different.
Your really have arrived when recordings do sound vastly different on your kit . Its when it sound the same you have problem it could be the same good sound or the same bad sound .

Hifi does not make anything "sound better" its sounds less good , they are small degradation's in every step not improvement's ,but your are still listening to most of the signal even in a rather pedestrian system.

Also weigth whats important .

Electronics is basically solved these days , just look out for duds and asses on build quality and capacity to drive speakers and headphones .

Recording,Room,Speakers ? the order can flip if the speakers are horrible ?

Most underestimated factors . Room EQ and EQ in general .

The insane idea if not having any EQ or tone controls on audiophile equipment . even if your system where perfect in the perfect room you still need them for the recordings .
That's a nice trap built by the high end industry , the listeners will never be happy because frankly many recordings do need some active adjustments by the user, but instead you run around trying to fix it by buing a new DAC off all things "they" got you .

 

[gino1961]

My 2 cents: I'm quite sure it IS the recording. .... Cool track, but I wouldn't use it to evaluate vocal realism.

Hi thanks a lot for your helpful advice. What a pity ... i really do not understand why they mess up such beautiful voices ... it is a lack of respect for the artist. It is like to put on mustaches on Mona Lisa face ....

 

[ZolaIII]

Actually you answered that one yourself "maybe it is the lockdown .... but i found the quality of the recorded singer's voice even moving for realism and passion" who ever did mastering felt the same and tryed to improve it and as it wents most times it went bad.

Edit:
Regarding Mona and recordings simply couldn't resist re posting this.

 

[Mnyb]

Hi thanks a lot for your helpful advice. What a pity ... i really do not understand why they mess up such beautiful voices ... it is a lack of respect for the artist. It is like to put on mustaches on Mona Lisa face ....

It may have sounded good to the mixing engineer with his speakers and in his studio, sadly there is no standard to these things its the perpetual problem for mixing and mastering engineer's how the record will "translate" to the audience.

 

[LightninBoy]

Hi thanks a lot for your helpful advice. What a pity ... i really do not understand why they mess up such beautiful voices ... it is a lack of respect for the artist. It is like to put on mustaches on Mona Lisa face ....

Its worse than you think. Watch this video to get an idea of the fuckery going into vocal recordings.

 

[gino1961]

It's hard for us to asume anything about the recordings I for example does not have the experience of live recording as some posters here actually have , recordings are not perfect they are often mixed and balanced on imperfect eqipment too.
And its also some fallacies built in to our assumptions ......
Most underestimated factors . Room EQ and EQ in general ...
That's a nice trap built by the high end industry , the listeners will never be happy because frankly many recordings do need some active adjustments by the user, but instead you run around trying to fix it by buing a new DAC off all things "they" got you .

Yes ! i know about the rule of room treatment first. But this is critical in many home situations
I am pretty sure i will stop bothering about the dacs ... and pass to speakers ... the second most impacting factor after the room acoustic response.
It is very difficult to select a good pair of speakers. I have to think about that seriously. Thanks a lot again.

 

[Mnyb]

Yes ! i know about the rule of room treatment first. But this is critical in many home situations
I am pretty sure i will stop bothering about the dacs ... and pass to speakers ... the second most impacting factor after the room acoustic response.
It is very difficult to select a good pair of speakers. I have to think about that seriously. Thanks a lot again.

My latest upgrade was to get married , then we moved in to a house and a diffrent listen room that do sound better than my previus room.

The latest advancement in speaker design has been to make their behavior more predicable in users rooms and less dependent on room treatment (good controlled directivity ) as frankly nobody does that in a living room or does it improperly , you need a pro to asses your room and not just buy stuff . I'm guilty of that too in the past, just f'ing around with acoustic panels without any proper measurement , it was different who knows if it improved anything or made it worse ?

 

[gino1961]

It may have sounded good to the mixing engineer with his speakers and in his studio, sadly there is no standard to these things its the perpetual problem for mixing and mastering engineer's how the record will "translate" to the audience.

i see, they could be my speakers most probably. When i listen seriously i listen blindfolded ... not only with eyes shut because that is stressing
It is impressive how some sonic details can come up more clearly ... in this case the voice sounds a little harsh probably for some processing
They say less is more sometimes ... i would not use much processing

 

[gino1961]

My latest upgrade was to get married , then we moved in to a house and a diffrent listen room that do sound better than my previus room. The latest advancement in speaker design has been to make their behavior more predicable in users rooms and less dependent on room treatment (good controlled directivity ) as frankly nobody does that in a living room or does it improperly , you need a pro to asses your room and not just buy stuff . I'm guilty of that too in the past, just f'ing around with acoustic panels without any proper measurement , it was different who knows if it improved anything or made it worse ?

Hi thanks a lot for the very helpful advice. i have to look at the speakers ... maybe horn loaded ones ? like Klipsch or similar
I have seen that some new speakers use waveguides for the tweeters .... i guess they help in controlling dispersion ? room reflections can be very nasty at the point of making the listening experience painful

 

[Mnyb]

Hi thanks a lot for the very helpful advice. i have to look at the speakers ... maybe horn loaded ones ? like Klipsch or similar
I have seen that some new speakers use waveguides for the tweeters .... i guess they help in controlling dispersion ? room reflections can be very nasty at the point of making the listening experience painful

I'll avoid Klipsch honestly , but more modern speakers are less guesswork but you still have to try at home ,but it's not as random as it used to be .
Read the speaker review on ASR or at Erins audio blog .
Wave guide is for example a better solution for the classical two way where the abrupt transition between a large woofer and small tweeter never goes unnoticed .

Its the whole package a systematic approach to all factors involved, these days a speaker mfg can asses and simulate the final result much better than in the past , their work is more complete imho ?

 

[Koeitje]

Hi thanks a lot for the very helpful advice. i have to look at the speakers ... maybe horn loaded ones ? like Klipsch or similar
I have seen that some new speakers use waveguides for the tweeters .... i guess they help in controlling dispersion ? room reflections can be very nasty at the point of making the listening experience painful

Just buy anything that is high on the recommended list here and its going to be a massive improvement over what you have now. When you know what a good loudspeaker sounds like you can start getting into the details.

 

[gino1961]

Its worse than you think. Watch this video to get an idea of the fuckery going into vocal recordings...

Hi thanks a lot for the very interesting video. The more i think about it the more i would make compressors and eqs illegal.
I like things raw ... not souped-up. It is like with cuisine ... when the food is bad quality i can understand to put on something to make it tolerable
But when the raw food is really good like in the case of Mrs. Chantal Chamberland's voice ... any spice alters the taste

 

[AnalogSteph]

Stupid question: Why (and how) does one combine a Benchmark DAC1 with a cheapie Auna amp selling for the princely sum of €96.99 (brand new) and what looks like some decent 5" budget bookshelves? That's like LS swapping a Peugeot 106 or something. The innards of the AV2-CD508 look solid enough for what it is but there are zero actual performance specs:

A review says it manages about 2x 45 W @ 0.7% max THD and should be used with higher-impedance speakers as operation with 4 ohm ones tends to trip protection. Noise, distortion and crosstalk are supposedly in the green otherwise.

The DAC1 only has one notable weakness, which is no headroom above 0 dBFS. Make sure your digital peak levels are kept 2-3 dB below that just in case. (If you are using ReplayGain, that should take care of that already.) Other than that, it still makes a fairly competent DAC, despite being a bit outdated.

Having such a fancy DAC may have one advantage... since it'll double as a preamp with XLR outputs, you could easily combine it with some of the excellent active (home) studio monitor speakers that are available these days. We'd only need to know your typical listening distance, levels and budget to recommend some. You can get some good ones for between 150 and a little over 300€ a piece already (several of which Amir has already measured), and a pair of decent XLR cables won't be breaking the bank either. Of course you can also spend thousands.

The Auna and speakers may still find a new home in the kitchen or whatever.

 

[gino1961]

I would like to thank all of you for the very kind and valuable advice that helped me to better center the problem.
The small but amazing dac from SMSL the Sanskrit 10th mk II will arrive on Saturday ... so the dac will no longer be to blame
As I have now realized the real problem, leaving aside the enormous and dramatic problem of the listening room acoustics, remain the speakers.
The ones I'm using are just too entry level to expect adequate performance.
To leave no stone unturned ... I'll try them again with the new dac.
But the next step will undoubtedly be evaluating their replacement.
I will be asking for advice in the dedicated sector and read the opinions of other forum members.

Among other things, I found that they have rather resonant cabinets. And this is not a nice thing in general.
I did a little experiment.
I bought a small music box mechanism that can hardly be heard when played in the air.
As soon as I place it on the speakers, the sound that comes out is impressive in terms of volume.
Because the cabinet amplifies the sound in a really impressive way ... it acts like the body of an acoustic instrument.
Aside from all other aspects, damping the walls of a speaker certainly pays dividends.
I have done this in the past and with remarkable results. The sound is much cleaner especially in the low range. Very much.
Unfortunately using a toxic material ... lead panels glued and nailed to the inside walls of a speaker.
I will report my findings with the new dac asap.
Thank you sincerely again.
Have a nice day, gino