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Dutch & Dutch 8c Review
- Thread starter hardisj
- Start date
When I emailed D&D they said seasonal cracks were normal with solid oak and it is. I would keep them well oiled if I lived in a dry climate or get the studio version.
Band limited dipole? I mean it's a unique thing but it's not accurate to call it a resonator. It's a judicious introduction of backwave cancellation to the front wave.
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I'm guessing because the difference is not audible, and it allowed them to lower the price. Why pay more for something that makes no difference?
Would be cool to have better amps if cost is the same, but not otherwise.
Please help me understand:
If we have a dac, an amp, and a speaker in three different boxes, and the amp or dac has low SINAD, heads are chopped.
If we put everything in one box, then it’s a complete product and low SINAD of components is irrelevant.
If we have a dac, an amp, and a speaker in three different boxes, and the amp or dac has low SINAD, heads are chopped.
If we put everything in one box, then it’s a complete product and low SINAD of components is irrelevant.
You are mixing reviewers. This review is not mine and I didn't declare its distortion inaudible. Nor is everyone equally sensitive to them: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...lind-tests-and-listener-training-video.21026/
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Here are a couple of detailed MEG measurements
https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...-nahfeldmonitor-mit-koaxialem-aufbau-im-test/
https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/testberichte/fertiglautsprecher/536-me-geithain-804k
Like you say the on and off axis smoothness isn't on the same league like the here often mentioned reference companies but...
I think the full cardioid response is one aspect, but possibly also the directivity tuning they claim which is supposed to match more a psychoacoustic curve from the book of Zwickert
here also in an interview (electronically translated):
"Important are timbre neutrality, a correct localization and a correct distance perception. This is achieved, among other things, by the fact that the radiation of a loudspeaker is not dispersed over more or less distant drivers, as is often the case with multi-way systems. In addition, the effect of the directional characteristic of a loudspeaker is often underestimated: Compared to other frequency ranges, the human ear evaluates direct sound between 2-4kHz about 2.5dB higher than diffuse sound, which must be taken into account accordingly when designing loudspeakers. Depending on the loudspeaker model and the associated optimum listening distance, we make sure, for example, that the loudspeaker beams less strongly in the range between 2-4kHz. Otherwise, there would be an overemphasis in this range, which would not be conducive to sound color fidelity or distance finding - the sound image would appear more present and subjectively move closer to the listener."
Source: https://www.fairaudio.de/hintergrun...sikelektronic-me-geithain-lautsprecher-5-dwt/
Myself have heard both the 901K and new 921K and really enjoyed them and a good friend of mine sold last year his pair of Neumann KH420 for a pair of MEG RL 921K and says he enjoys it more. For production and mixing I am not sure if I would use them a more "compatible" and conventional approach, but for music listening they are a great slightly different alternative which really deserves an auditioning.
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Please help me understand:
If we have a dac, an amp, and a speaker in three different boxes, and the amp or dac has low SINAD, heads are chopped.
If we put everything in one box, then it’s a complete product and low SINAD of components is irrelevant.
I think it's irrelevant in both cases
, which I why I generally don't read the electronic reviews. I don't get the obsession over SINAD in the electronic reviews. In my view, an 80dB AVR with 9 preouts is a better AVR than a 120dB AVR with 7 preouts.
I am not referring to the reviews or the reviewers.
I am referring to a way of thinking/approaching reviews and the conclusions made by the members reading them.
RobL
Addicted to Fun and Learning
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I am considering purchasing 8351’s, is there anything you don’t like about them?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #251
Huh? Sponsorships? That’s news to me. If someone is sponsoring me, then let me know who so I ask them why they haven’t paid me.
If you’re talking product loaners, then sure. But one could say the same for your reviews of JBL/Harman products since you own a company that sells them (and hey, maybe you don’t put those on the front page per your own rule). And you’ve gotten loaners from manufacturers as well. I’m not implying anything. Just making the point. I’m puzzled at why you would say that.
Ads, yes. Via amazon/other affiliate links. Not really anything I’d consider significant. They weren’t in this review. YouTube ad revenue, too. But also not in this review. (Yet)
Besides, none of those exist in this particular thread. Not that I really care. I don’t expect you to “endorse” anyone else on your own website and that’s fine. But I need to be clear on how I operate. Not sure where you get the impression anyone sponsors me.
Edit: Pardon me if I sound defensive. I am. The sponsor part could be misinterpreted by some as I am getting paid for my reviews by manufacturers. I hope everyone here knows that is not and has never been the case. And, frankly, Amir, it sucks to read you saying that about me because surely you know the implications of what you said. Maybe I’m completely misunderstanding you, though. I hope so. :/
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Yeah, I was confused by Amir’s comment, I went to your site to double check that I didn’t have my ad block on.Huh? Sponsorships? That’s news to me. If someone is sponsoring me, then let me know who so I ask them why they haven’t paid me.
If you’re talking product loaners, then sure. But one could say the same for your reviews of JBL/Harman products since you own a company that sells them (and hey, maybe you don’t put those on the front page per your own rule). And you’ve gotten loaners from manufacturers as well. I’m not implying anything. Just making the point. I’m puzzled at why you would say that.
Ads, yes. Via amazon/other affiliate links. Not really anything I’d consider significant. They weren’t in this review. YouTube ad revenue, too. But also not in this review. (Yet)
Besides, none of those exist in this particular thread. Not that I really care. I don’t expect you to “endorse” anyone else on your own website and that’s fine. But I need to be clear on how I operate. Not sure where you get the impression anyone sponsors me.
Edit: Pardon me if I sound defensive. I am. The sponsor part could be misinterpreted by some as I am getting paid for my reviews by manufacturers. I hope everyone here knows that is not and has never been the case. And, frankly, Amir, it sucks to read you saying that about me because surely you know the implications of what you said. Maybe I’m completely misunderstanding you, though. I hope so. :/
It would be nice if they went a little lower, the 8c in my room went to 28hz before falling off the Genelec around 36hz. The Genelec doesn't sound as polite or laid back as the 8c. Just my subjective opinion I'm sure others might find the opposite try to listen to both if you can.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #254
I updated the review on my site with the below information. Couldn't edit my post here, but hopefully everyone sees this...
In-Room Measurements from the Listening Position
Below is a photograph of the speakers set up in my living room. The speakers were placed approximately 80cm from the front wall (not the cabinets; but the actual wall). The listening position was approximately 4 meters from the speakers.
Below is the actual measured in-room response. This is a spatial average taken over approximately 1 cubic foot. As you can see, the actual in-room response aligns quite well with the prediction generated from the SPIN data. Pretty cool to see how anechoic measurements can reliably predict the actual in-room response. I feel many others often overlook this powerful benefit of the SPIN data.
Below 1kHz we see more deviation from the prediction. This is expected. My couch, the back wall behind where I sit, the end table and the lamp near the listening position all have an effect on the measured response. The dip from 150-400Hz is caused by the rear wall and/or couch as when the microphone is moved in to the center of the room the dip fills in. The thing I notice here, though, is just how well behaved the room modes are above 100Hz. There are a few but they are much less severe than other in-room measurements I have taken of past speakers. One has to think this is attributed to the cardioid nature of the 8c speakers.
In this example, the 8c speakers were set to 80cm from the front wall in the DSP. This helps attenuate the bass to a more neutral response based on the prediction of the boundary loading (approximately +6dB below 100Hz). However, the room still has its say and I ended up with a +12dB response at 30Hz compared to 1kHz. That’s a lot of bass from a (albeit large) bookshelf speaker. Free bass is never a bad thing; especially with a speaker like this which has built-in DSP to attenuate such things if they are cause for concern.
In-Room Measurements from the Listening Position
Below is a photograph of the speakers set up in my living room. The speakers were placed approximately 80cm from the front wall (not the cabinets; but the actual wall). The listening position was approximately 4 meters from the speakers.
Below is the actual measured in-room response. This is a spatial average taken over approximately 1 cubic foot. As you can see, the actual in-room response aligns quite well with the prediction generated from the SPIN data. Pretty cool to see how anechoic measurements can reliably predict the actual in-room response. I feel many others often overlook this powerful benefit of the SPIN data.
Below 1kHz we see more deviation from the prediction. This is expected. My couch, the back wall behind where I sit, the end table and the lamp near the listening position all have an effect on the measured response. The dip from 150-400Hz is caused by the rear wall and/or couch as when the microphone is moved in to the center of the room the dip fills in. The thing I notice here, though, is just how well behaved the room modes are above 100Hz. There are a few but they are much less severe than other in-room measurements I have taken of past speakers. One has to think this is attributed to the cardioid nature of the 8c speakers.
In this example, the 8c speakers were set to 80cm from the front wall in the DSP. This helps attenuate the bass to a more neutral response based on the prediction of the boundary loading (approximately +6dB below 100Hz). However, the room still has its say and I ended up with a +12dB response at 30Hz compared to 1kHz. That’s a lot of bass from a (albeit large) bookshelf speaker. Free bass is never a bad thing; especially with a speaker like this which has built-in DSP to attenuate such things if they are cause for concern.
Huh? Sponsorships? That’s news to me. If someone is sponsoring me, then let me know who so I ask them why they haven’t paid me.
If you’re talking product loaners, then sure. But one could say the same for your reviews of JBL/Harman products since you own a company that sells them (and hey, maybe you don’t put those on the front page per your own rule). And you’ve gotten loaners from manufacturers as well. I’m not implying anything. Just making the point. I’m puzzled at why you would say that.
Ads, yes. Via amazon/other affiliate links. Not really anything I’d consider significant. They weren’t in this review. YouTube ad revenue, too. But also not in this review. (Yet)
Besides, none of those exist in this particular thread. Not that I really care. I don’t expect you to “endorse” anyone else on your own website and that’s fine. But I need to be clear on how I operate. Not sure where you get the impression anyone sponsors me.
Edit: Pardon me if I sound defensive. I am. The sponsor part could be misinterpreted by some as I am getting paid for my reviews by manufacturers. I hope everyone here knows that is not and has never been the case. And, frankly, Amir, it sucks to read you saying that about me because surely you know the implications of what you said. Maybe I’m completely misunderstanding you, though. I hope so. :/
I hope you guys can work this out. For me as a reader the critical issue is the impartiality of the reviews, I don't care about affiliate ads and so on.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #256
I honestly don't mind Amir not putting anything of mine on the front page. I didn't even know that was a thing. My bookmark takes me straight to the speaker review section. I don't expect him to put someone else's stuff on the front page of his site. Truly. So I have no hard feelings at all about that. None. At all. Seriously. (Seriously)
I just didn't like that he said I'm sponsored. That came out of left field because it carries heavy implications with it and I think everyone knows that is not the case with me.
I don't want to derail a perfectly good thread over such things. I just felt it needed to be addressed. I'm moving on.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #257
You sure you had the right calibration file loaded?
(but, seriously, I'd ask the same thing if I were you)
Nope. I had the right cal file (both times). I knew the HF didn't look right because it didn't match what I heard when I played HF filtered Pink Noise (I have special test tracks for tuning).
So, I measured with the Earthworks M23 and got the results below. Teal is M23. Orange is UMIK-1.
Turns out, it really is the mic. Unfortunately. I dropped it last week. I just figured NBD. Turns out, BD. Guess I'll need to get a new one at some point. Ugh.
No doubt it's a great speaker, and not to take away from your enjoyment of it (one of my all time favorite speakers is the JBL100 Classic, which measures okay but not fantastic), but that measurement is heavily smoothed -- looks like 1/6 octave to me.
(but, seriously, I'd ask the same thing if I were you)
Nope. I had the right cal file (both times). I knew the HF didn't look right because it didn't match what I heard when I played HF filtered Pink Noise (I have special test tracks for tuning).
So, I measured with the Earthworks M23 and got the results below. Teal is M23. Orange is UMIK-1.
View attachment 116719
Turns out, it really is the mic. Unfortunately. I dropped it last week. I just figured NBD. Turns out, BD. Guess I'll need to get a new one at some point. Ugh.
That's okay, My dog once knocked my mic stand over such that the microphone landed in her water bowl. The measurements got screwed up. Them's the breaks sometimes
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A too-short cable pulled an Earthworks QTC40 out of its clip (I HATE the Earthworks hardware for holding mics) before a chamber music concert that I was to record. That was bad...
(but, seriously, I'd ask the same thing if I were you)
Nope. I had the right cal file (both times). I knew the HF didn't look right because it didn't match what I heard when I played HF filtered Pink Noise (I have special test tracks for tuning).
So, I measured with the Earthworks M23 and got the results below. Teal is M23. Orange is UMIK-1.
View attachment 116719
Turns out, it really is the mic. Unfortunately. I dropped it last week. I just figured NBD. Turns out, BD. Guess I'll need to get a new one at some point. Ugh.
Prolly. Big Brother is listening in on you!
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