Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC

[Sylafari]

Some are calling measured results only anecdotal. Bizzaro. None will admit Bob's results show the same poor linearity. Saying Amir's unit is defective.

Are they really saying my unit is defective?

 

[Wombat]

Because some people develop around a product or brand like a cult. This is especially true with audiophile products because audiophile products are sold upon brand stories that people want to buy into. Someone who has thousands of dollars of Schiit gear isn't likely to respond well when someone points out that some of their products have serious issues. They don't want to know if it is bad. Even the ones who self-profess to only care about what they hear still like to believe that it measures well. You're an intruder coming in and providing evidence to the contrary. You're motives have to be questioned in their mind to provide the self-assurance that you're just a spiteful objectivist out to get Schiit and that actually everything is fine.

As I originally said on one of my first posts here. People buying these expensive products largely do not care about measurements. The best utility in terms of measurements is always at the budget end where quality can be found and recommended. These are the people who care about getting quality on their very limited budgets and want measurements to provide assurances that what they are buying is quality. As the price increases the people care less and less about measurements and more about perceived sound and brand stories.

James Randi was abused by victims of fraud after he outed the fraudsters because the victims really wanted to believe the scam.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Are they really saying my unit is defective?

Yes . I believe Moffat implied it too. Yet it measures like though slightly better than atomic Bob's.

Maybe you should send it for repair.

 

[SpeedyRodent]

Are they really saying my unit is defective?

The good news is Moffat offered to "fix" it. No charge if it is still under warranty.


Edit - Copy of Moffat's post below:
Source: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wha...n-robert-hunter.784471/page-449#post-14028674

"I hate to comment on any bad PR but make an exception here. First, I address the widely reported and endlessly condemned zero crossing "glitch" on earlier Yggydrasil DACs. It was (and still is) my opinion that said glitch was well below the threshold of audibility (> minus 116db). The results were dozens and dozens of posts by one bellyacher (on another forum) adjudging I was incompetent as an engineer. I then decided to address the glitch by adjusting the filter software. The result was no change in audibility. This change was implemented before the multibit Gungnirs and Bifrosts were introduced and that glitch is not applicable has never been involved in those products.

That said, I did read the review on the Bifrost linked above. It is quite true that the s/n + dist performance of a 16 bit DAC should be worse of than that of a 24 bit ds dac. How audible that is would be an interesting sound science experiment. We make 24 bit DS DACs with similar performance to the favored DAC of the reviewer. The linearity reported measurement is atrocious and far below the performance level of any 16 bit Bifrost ever sold. This means either the linearity measurement or the Bifrost is broken. The differential and integral linearity of the AD5547 is 1/2 LSB, which makes its missing codes reconstruction suitable for weapons or medical, unlike ds, where the nunnery gets bombed or the prostate rather than the colon gets removed.

If I were working objectively and scientifically with another's component with such apparent anomalies I have several choices. The professional way is that I contact them, report my findings, and try to get to the bottom of what is going on. Even if one really disliks the person/people, it would be a probable sign of their perceived, accurately or not, inadaquacy as a expert to write "papers" or reviews with nothing but perjorative words, subjective negative cosmetic judgement, and grandiosity. In fact, I find it professional to never comment on anyone else's product ever. It is simply none of my business as a manufacturer. I am, however, not a reviewer. This one came out of the blue as a guerilla review I had no idea was in process. That said, at whatever risk, I have an obligation to repair the Bifrost's linearity, if it is indeed broken under warranty, gratis. If it is not, we will do so if desired at a nominal charge. From the tone of your review, it will do little to change anything, but my side of the street will be clean.

You know to it is difficult for me to understand how I attract such bitterness as well as those who adjudge me to be incompetent. I know I can be harsh and operate with my filters off frequently, but I have amassed too many colleagues in this industry to count, including those who value sound science with whom I have a relationship of mutual respect. I design equipment of all kinds, classic and contemporary, tube and solid state, analog and digital. I never recommend any of mygear to anyone nor make any sonic comparisons. I am genuinely proud to use and offer to others all of my gear. Believe it or not, I even enjoy some competitors' gear. I frequently attend live concerts and genuinely love my hobby. I can think of no other occupation I would find agreeable.

I have discovered that those who publicly disparage you can do as much for you as those who love you. If nothing else, they keep you in the limelight. Moffat's law number one says:

I could go off and wander around until God showed me how to make a perfect component and there would still be people who find fault with it.

The more they fault it the more they promote it. It absolutely does not hurt me. Thick skin I suppose. Some may imagine Schiit to be some huge company with evil corporate marketing looking to dominate a zero sum game. Nope – I am in this for my health. I have been doing it since the 1970's so I am obviously in it for the long run. It is far easier for me to repect and like my competitors than hate them. We need competitors. More and more makers, gear, and people involved. The more involved the lower the prices. No competitors means no shows, no forums, higher prices, and then no nothin' audio. This is exactly what is happening in High End Audio and why it will be gone soon after my generation is dead. This is not a devisive pastime unless you want it to be. If so I encourage you to take up politics.

Here is my offering to my Northwest Bifrost reviewer of AV gear with the Japanese Bride avatar. I go to every (almost) Rocky Mountain AF, occasional Axpona Shows, and some local meets or SchiitKit shows. Let's meet up, shake hands, be cordial and air our philosophies either publicly or privately. Your call. I promise I to be well behaved verbally and I don't even care if you really think I am ugly or incompetent. This is all I have to say on this subject. No more posts – I will not be called out. I will let your posts stand on this thread (This thread is mine to moderate) as I really loathe censorship. If you wish to further communicate with me all about how stupid I am, how much my gear sucks, or any communication at all, I would encourage you to PM me, as any real or perceived negative Moffat stuff on this thread in particular will probably bode far less well for you than me."

 

[Candlesticks]

Here is my offering to my Northwest Bifrost reviewer of AV gear with the Japanese Bride avatar.

That seems like a reference to NwAvGuy.

 

[Wombat]

The industry secret is out. Amirm is NwAvGuy.

 

[amirm]

Oh noooo!

 

[Jorj]

I already stuck up for you once, Amir. I said your writing is not up to NwAvGuy standards. Never fear, I still think you're great!

 

[mindbomb]

The 1/2 LSB spec is only for DC, right?

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

The good news is Moffat offered to "fix" it. No charge if it is still under warranty.


Edit - Copy of Moffat's post below:
Source: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wha...n-robert-hunter.784471/page-449#post-14028674

"I hate to comment on any bad PR but make an exception here. First, I address the widely reported and endlessly condemned zero crossing "glitch" on earlier Yggydrasil DACs. It was (and still is) my opinion that said glitch was well below the threshold of audibility (> minus 116db). The results were dozens and dozens of posts by one bellyacher (on another forum) adjudging I was incompetent as an engineer. I then decided to address the glitch by adjusting the filter software. The result was no change in audibility. This change was implemented before the multibit Gungnirs and Bifrosts were introduced and that glitch is not applicable has never been involved in those products.

That said, I did read the review on the Bifrost linked above. It is quite true that the s/n + dist performance of a 16 bit DAC should be worse of than that of a 24 bit ds dac. How audible that is would be an interesting sound science experiment. We make 24 bit DS DACs with similar performance to the favored DAC of the reviewer. The linearity reported measurement is atrocious and far below the performance level of any 16 bit Bifrost ever sold. This means either the linearity measurement or the Bifrost is broken. The differential and integral linearity of the AD5547 is 1/2 LSB, which makes its missing codes reconstruction suitable for weapons or medical, unlike ds, where the nunnery gets bombed or the prostate rather than the colon gets removed.

If I were working objectively and scientifically with another's component with such apparent anomalies I have several choices. The professional way is that I contact them, report my findings, and try to get to the bottom of what is going on. Even if one really disliks the person/people, it would be a probable sign of their perceived, accurately or not, inadaquacy as a expert to write "papers" or reviews with nothing but perjorative words, subjective negative cosmetic judgement, and grandiosity. In fact, I find it professional to never comment on anyone else's product ever. It is simply none of my business as a manufacturer. I am, however, not a reviewer. This one came out of the blue as a guerilla review I had no idea was in process. That said, at whatever risk, I have an obligation to repair the Bifrost's linearity, if it is indeed broken under warranty, gratis. If it is not, we will do so if desired at a nominal charge. From the tone of your review, it will do little to change anything, but my side of the street will be clean.

You know to it is difficult for me to understand how I attract such bitterness as well as those who adjudge me to be incompetent. I know I can be harsh and operate with my filters off frequently, but I have amassed too many colleagues in this industry to count, including those who value sound science with whom I have a relationship of mutual respect. I design equipment of all kinds, classic and contemporary, tube and solid state, analog and digital. I never recommend any of mygear to anyone nor make any sonic comparisons. I am genuinely proud to use and offer to others all of my gear. Believe it or not, I even enjoy some competitors' gear. I frequently attend live concerts and genuinely love my hobby. I can think of no other occupation I would find agreeable.

I have discovered that those who publicly disparage you can do as much for you as those who love you. If nothing else, they keep you in the limelight. Moffat's law number one says:

I could go off and wander around until God showed me how to make a perfect component and there would still be people who find fault with it.

The more they fault it the more they promote it. It absolutely does not hurt me. Thick skin I suppose. Some may imagine Schiit to be some huge company with evil corporate marketing looking to dominate a zero sum game. Nope – I am in this for my health. I have been doing it since the 1970's so I am obviously in it for the long run. It is far easier for me to repect and like my competitors than hate them. We need competitors. More and more makers, gear, and people involved. The more involved the lower the prices. No competitors means no shows, no forums, higher prices, and then no nothin' audio. This is exactly what is happening in High End Audio and why it will be gone soon after my generation is dead. This is not a devisive pastime unless you want it to be. If so I encourage you to take up politics.

Here is my offering to my Northwest Bifrost reviewer of AV gear with the Japanese Bride avatar. I go to every (almost) Rocky Mountain AF, occasional Axpona Shows, and some local meets or SchiitKit shows. Let's meet up, shake hands, be cordial and air our philosophies either publicly or privately. Your call. I promise I to be well behaved verbally and I don't even care if you really think I am ugly or incompetent. This is all I have to say on this subject. No more posts – I will not be called out. I will let your posts stand on this thread (This thread is mine to moderate) as I really loathe censorship. If you wish to further communicate with me all about how stupid I am, how much my gear sucks, or any communication at all, I would encourage you to PM me, as any real or perceived negative Moffat stuff on this thread in particular will probably bode far less well for you than me."

The good news is that Mike is a Real Professional.

 

[Wombat]

Moffat is quoted in post#266, above, as being under obligation to fix it under warranty if it is broken(faulty?) and for a nominal fee if it is not. Nothing special about that.

There is also a lot of self-serving waffle and loose accusation included in the post. It reads like was primarily originally posted for his forum members' consumption.

I guess we will differ on what a Real Professional is. I am reading wrt engineering, not spin.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Moffat is quoted in post#266, above, as being under obligation to fix it under warranty if it is broken(faulty?) and for a nominal fee if it is not. Nothing special about that.

There is also a lot of self-serving waffle and loose accusation included in the post. It reads like was primarily originally posted for his forum members' consumption.

I guess we will differ on what a Real Professional is. I am reading wrt engineering, not spin.

IMO Professional in the sense that he is not being contacted directly by the owner of the dac with a possible issue. He is still trying to answer third party speculation and fix the problem. Also ignoring the rock throwing by the less informed members. And lastly showing, on a personal note how one should keep their integrity and value life.

 

[Sal1950]

IMO Professional in the sense that he is not being contacted directly by the owner of the dac with a possible issue. He is still trying to answer third party speculation and fix the problem. Also ignoring the rock throwing by the less informed members. And lastly showing, on a personal note how one should keep their integrity and value life.

A Real Professional would come here and address the measurements he disputes, maybe even offer a properly functioning unit for further testing.
That would be a very straightforward approach, but it might answer questions in ways he would rather avoid.

 

[Wombat]

The issue is measured performance which he avoided at length.

So many false arguments I stopped counting.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

e

A Real Professional would come here and address the measurements he disputes, maybe even offer a properly functioning unit for further testing.
That would be a very straightforward approach, but it might answer questions in ways he would rather avoid.

Well in the current sick world that we have with people conducting life via Twitter and Facebook, some might agree with you. But, I will respectively disagree.

 

[Jinjuku]

I say send the unit back to Schiit and then when he gets it back measure it again.

 

[amirm]

IMO Professional in the sense that he is not being contacted directly by the owner of the dac with a possible issue. He is still trying to answer third party speculation and fix the problem. Also ignoring the rock throwing by the less informed members. And lastly showing, on a personal note how one should keep their integrity and value life.

The #1 thing he should have done/do is to go and measure one of their units and post the results. Nothing else is helpful.
#2 would be contacting me in private and get my help in figuring out what is going on. Other manufacturers have done so.

In other words, we need action that results in solutions and explanations. Their users are left in the conflict without it.

 

[Thomas savage]

I say Moffat sounds like a nice bloke but the “ gorilla review” comment he made reveals just how insular the high end audio industry is, (so called) high end reviews are for promoting the products and are done hand in hand with manufacturers and they are a scam imo.

Why mr moffat can’t just post his own measurements is a little beyond me, we need another unit to measure..

Why battle measurements with word salad? Even if it’s nice word salad..

It’s my understanding all their units we have measured have given relatively poor results, were they all faulty units?.....

 

[Thomas savage]

@amirm I know there’s a consensus here that the two units measured ( 1 by you the other by atomicgob) show the same things but can we not buy a brand new unit and measure that.

If it shows the same results according to Moffat it’s faulty and would be refunded on return I presume?

 

[Blumlein 88]

@amirm I know there’s a consensus here that the two units measured ( 1 by you the other by atomicgob) show the same things but can we not buy a brand new unit and measure that.

If it shows the same results according to Moffat it’s faulty and would be refunded on return I presume?

Except Amir may get special non-accommodation service.