Critique my system upgrade

[noobie1]

You might consider the Allo Digione for your streamer option. I use the coaxial version (~$200) with Volumio (free) with great results (I don't pay Volumio monthly fees btw). I have experimented with a couple of DRC solutions:

1) Load my impulse response filters (generated from REW/RePhase) into my Allo Digione and use BruteFIR to apply room correction.
2) Use LA Convolver or Melda Convolution EZ (both are donationware) audio units in Audirvana and stream room corrected music through Allo Digione. Lately, I've been having trouble getting LA Convolver to work with Audirvana.
3) Use LA Convolver or Melda Convolution EZ audio units in Ableton Live 10 or Garageband on a Macbook Pro connected to my DAC. The DAW apply impulse response to signal coming from the Allo Digione.
4) Use ROON convolution engine through Allo Digione.
5) Use ROON convolution engine on my MacBook Pro connected to my DAC.

I usually stream music to the Allo Digione from my iPhone using Qobuz app. Subjectively, I prefer the sound coming from 2) and 3) best.

If you have an Apple TV lying around, I would try streaming through that first. Google CCA is another cheap option. I've also experimented with Dirac Live (tried the 2 week demo) and Sonarworks (own). REW/RePhase seems to work just as well if not better than those options.

 

[noobie1]

After 23 years of service it's time to upgrade our stereo system.
Existing system:
— CD player
— Onkyo TX-8511 (integrated tuner and amp, 100 watts per channel, 0.08% THD)
— Kef Q15 speakers
— Subwoofer (Due to placement, the sound is so disconnected from the Kefs that I turned it down to the point that it is barely audible.)

Budget for new system: $5k.
(Accounting will be happier if it's closer to $4k.)
[No one really cares if Accounting is happy, so long as they sign the check.]

We own perhaps 100 CDs. Of these, 80% are classical; two parts instrumental one part vocal. The 20% of the collection that is not classical is mostly vocal with acoustic accompaniment. I don't think we have a single recording with electric guitars—though I occasionally listen to that sort of thing on the radio.

I like pure, clear sound, true to the performance. (The Q15s were a revelation at first hearing.)

The room is 15 x 20 feet with 9 foot ceilings; the speakers are on the 15 foot wall.

My selections so far:
Speakers:
Kef LS50 Meta
Kef Kube 8b sub (to be placed between the LS50s, pending approval by Aesthetics)
I chose the LS50 Metas as the most likely to reproduce the music as played, with good presence and a broad soundstage.
[I've picked up the lingo pretty well in just a few days of reading, yes? ]
I want to use a DSP to attenuate the LS50s at ~60 Hz and ship the lower frequencies to the sub.
(Or is the crossover knob on the sub good enough?)

I enjoyed KEF Q100's for several years. My preference is also for pure clear sound. If you like KEF speakers, try to audition KEF Reference 1. Just saw one listed for $4450 on one of the websites. They are very dynamic and would be great for music or movies.

 

[q3cpma]

As some said, a significant upgrade would be going Neumann, Genelec, D&D, Kii, GGNTKT, Dynaudio Focus XD, etc... but if we stay within your budget and expectations, don't take the LS50. Why? Because 2-way speakers are a compromise and 2-way coaxials even more (IMD). So look at the KEF R3 or R5, I'd say.

 

[Webninja]

I don't suppose I object to powered speakers; the Genelec's look like good ones. On the other hand, I'm not sure what the advantage would be compared to a single low distortion power amp feeding passive speakers. [Edit:] Elimination of crossover?

Mostly from what I’ve learned here, but for the money, they are hard to beat. What you get is a cohesive package, amps, crossovers, dacs, drivers, all built as a system. Look at the reviews here of Genelec and Neumann.

 

[YouCanCallMeGeorge]

As some said, a significant upgrade would be going Neumann, Genelec, D&D, Kii, GGNTKT, Dynaudio Focus XD, etc

I looked at a couple of Neumann and Genelec speakers. As I see it, the canned DSP filters in these units are well meaning, but preemptive. They may be better than no filter at all, but they prevent me from installing filters that do a better job of balancing the sound in the room. If I have this wrong, please comment.

... but if we stay within your budget and expectations, don't take the LS50. Why? Because 2-way speakers are a compromise and 2-way coaxials even more (IMD). So look at the KEF R3 or R5, I'd say.

Agreed that 3-way speakers will have stronger low bass sound, broadly speaking. OTOH, it's not clear to me that 2-way coaxials (such as the LS50) will have more IMD than 3-way coaxials, such as R3 or R5.

 

[YouCanCallMeGeorge]

Mostly from what I’ve learned here, but for the money, they are hard to beat. What you get is a cohesive package, amps, crossovers, dacs, drivers, all built as a system. Look at the reviews here of Genelec and Neumann.

The "system package" approach no doubt serves a certain demographic, and that's a good thing. OTOH, see my comment immediately above (#26).

 

[stren]

I looked at a couple of Neumann and Genelec speakers. As I see it, the canned DSP filters in these units are well meaning, but preemptive. They may be better than no filter at all, but they prevent me from installing filters that do a better job of balancing the sound in the room. If I have this wrong, please comment.

Agreed that 3-way speakers will have stronger low bass sound, broadly speaking. OTOH, it's not clear to me that 2-way coaxials (such as the LS50) will have more IMD than 3-way coaxials, such as R3 or R5.

I believe the theory (and I'm not sure if it's proven) is that the lower frequencies (i.e. below where the 3 way's woofer would take over i.e. ~400HZ) would cause the LS50 driver to move more significantly than the R3. The interrupt in the cone shape due to the coaxial driver design during this movement is theorized to cause IMD. Even if you ignore this though the R3 will have less distortion than the LS50 from the crossover down at high enough power levels. For a small enough room and quiet enough volumes, the LS50 may be distortion free enough to pair with a sub. The R3 will significantly increase the envelope of SPL output before equivalent distortion sets in. Of course if you truly believe IMD is a significant issue, then you are probably against coax drivers in general.

 

[q3cpma]

I looked at a couple of Neumann and Genelec speakers. As I see it, the canned DSP filters in these units are well meaning, but preemptive. They may be better than no filter at all, but they prevent me from installing filters that do a better job of balancing the sound in the room. If I have this wrong, please comment.

Neumann is purely analogue except the KH80DSP and Genelec also has analogue models (80x0 serie). In the case of these DSP models, said DSP is used to flatten frequency response, possibly correct some phase issues and implement optimal crossovers (and low pass filters for bass reflex enclosures), but both of these also have an external measurement kit (Neumann MA-1 and Genelec GLM) containing a microphone to tailor the frequency response to the room.

Agreed that 3-way speakers will have stronger low bass sound, broadly speaking. OTOH, it's not clear to me that 2-way coaxials (such as the LS50) will have more IMD than 3-way coaxials, such as R3 or R5.

I believe the theory (and I'm not sure if it's proven) is that the lower frequencies (i.e. below where the 3 way's woofer would take over i.e. ~400HZ) would cause the LS50 driver to move more significantly than the R3. The interrupt in the cone shape due to the coaxial driver design during this movement is theorized to cause IMD. Even if you ignore this though the R3 will have less distortion than the LS50 from the crossover down at high enough power levels. For a small enough room and quiet enough volumes, the LS50 may be distortion free enough to pair with a sub. The R3 will significantly increase the envelope of SPL output before equivalent distortion sets in. Of course if you truly believe IMD is a significant issue, then you are probably against coax drivers in general.

Midrange to tweeter coax can have a very low IMD, as the recent 8361A measurement by S&R showed. Obviously IMD will increase in 2-way coaxials, as a woofer will modulate the tweeter's waves more than a midwoofer, but I don't know by how much. What's for sure, though, is that IMD is generally way worse than harmonic distorsion, so it makes sense to really try to avoid it.

Genelec's AES paper about the Ones' design actually has some data about this in 6.3, comparing multitone distorsion with some designs. It also cites Klipsch, “A note on modulation distortion: coaxial and spaced tweeter-woofer loudspeaker systems,” Journal AES, vol. 24, no. 3, pp. 186 – 187 (1976). about this problem.

 

[Chrise36]

RME ADI 2 FS driving Neumann KH 310A

 

[YouCanCallMeGeorge]

Neumann is purely analogue except the KH80DSP and Genelec also has analogue models (80x0 serie). In the case of these DSP models, said DSP is used to flatten frequency response, possibly correct some phase issues and implement optimal crossovers (and low pass filters for bass reflex enclosures), but both of these also have an external measurement kit (Neumann MA-1 and Genelec GLM) containing a microphone to tailor the frequency response to the room.

Good to know. I'll have another look at Neumann and Genelec.

Midrange to tweeter coax can have a very low IMD, as the recent 8361A measurement by S&R showed

A search for "8361A measurement by S&R" turned up the Macy's Men's Style Guide.
Also showed a thread in this forum, but I did not see the measurements on the first page...
Do you have a link to the measurements?

Obviously IMD will increase in 2-way coaxials, as a woofer will modulate the tweeter's waves more than a midwoofer, but I don't know by how much. What's for sure, though, is that IMD is generally way worse than harmonic distortion, so it makes sense to really try to avoid it.

Agreed. In practice, given the ability of the LS50s to produce a detailed image of the instruments on stage (according to John Atkinson at Stereophile), the IMD must be under pretty good control so long as the speakers are not pushed too hard. Still, it makes sense to use a three way to minimize the IMD problem. The three way (R3 in this case) makes sense for other reasons anyway.

Genelec's AES paper about the Ones' design actually has some data about this in 6.3, comparing multitone distorsion with some designs. It also cites Klipsch, “A note on modulation distortion: coaxial and spaced tweeter-woofer loudspeaker systems,” Journal AES, vol. 24, no. 3, pp. 186 – 187 (1976). about this problem.[/QUOTE]
I saw the first, and perhaps only page of this paper on the AES E-library page. Side note: In a past work life I traveled to Hope, AR a fair bit. Our plant was just down the street from the Klipsch building. A coworker thought enough of Mr. Klipsch to give me a brief history of him and his work.

 

[Webninja]

You can use this handy index to peruse all the speakers tested so far. This includes Genelec and Neumann.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/SpeakerTestData/

Erin’s Audio Corner, also has a few speaker reviews, including an upcoming Dutch&Dutch review!!

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/

 

[YouCanCallMeGeorge]

Update:
1. Several meetings with the Head of Aesthetics and the Chair of the Activities Committee have resulted in some changes:
The existing stereo system will continue to operate in the living room.
The new system will be placed in the Computer Room, which is 12' x 12'.

2. After considering the input so far, these are the favored components at the moment:
Kef R3s instead of LS50 Metas. $2,000
The R3s will not be challenged in such a small room, so distortion should be held to a minimum.
I may be able to listen to Revel M105 or M106; we'll see.
I will look again at Neumann and Genelec.

Rythmik L12 Sub between the R3s. $559

Buckeye Hypex NC252MP (250W) Amp - $500

miniDSP SHD - $1200 (Perhaps not needed if I end up with Neumann or Genelec speakers.)

There are plenty of options for the streamer. I can take my time deciding.

 

[YouCanCallMeGeorge]

Speaking of distortion...
While poking around I read this review of the Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf speaker:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/philharmonic_bmr/

A few days ago I read another review of the speaker, on this forum (not by amirm). Both reviewers were so impressed with the speaker's performance that they seemed to stumble over themselves as they searched inwardly for the appropriate adjectives to express their feelings.

I don't quibble with the reviews one bit. I just wonder how a speaker with THD as high as 3% between 1800 and 4000Hz, at 84Db, can sound so good.
Thoughts?

 

[Ron Texas]

I'm using a pair of Rythmic L12's with LS50 originals. High pass is at 100 hz using the DSP built into the Crown XLS1502. That DSP also provides a bitof delay which works nicely in my setup although in a different room delay of the subs rather than the mains might work. Equalizer APO is providing system wide EQ.

 

[Doodski]

I'm using a pair of Rythmic L12's with LS50 originals. High pass is at 100 hz using the DSP built into the Crown XLS1502. That DSP also provides a bitof delay which works nicely in my setup although in a different room delay of the subs rather than the mains might work. Equalizer APO is providing system wide EQ.

For my thread about EQ/PEQ I'm curious if you have used the Peace Equalizer or the PC Equalizer add-ons for Equalizer APO. If you have used them what was the result and final ideas about those add-ons?

 

[amper42]

Speaking of distortion...
While poking around I read this review of the Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf speaker:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/philharmonic_bmr/

A few days ago I read another review of the speaker, on this forum (not by amirm). Both reviewers were so impressed with the speaker's performance that they seemed to stumble over themselves as they searched inwardly for the appropriate adjectives to express their feelings.

I don't quibble with the reviews one bit. I just wonder how a speaker with THD as high as 3% between 1800 and 4000Hz, at 84Db, can sound so good.
Thoughts?

First you need to understand Erins review was done with an older version of the BMR. The new model is shown here. It uses a different driver. http://philharmonicaudio.com

Today, I compared the new BMR ($1700) side by side against the Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL 70-20 tweeters ($3100). Amazingly, the BMR sounded just as good or better in some cases. I would have thought the Sierra Towers would be an easy winner. But, that was not the case. The BMR provided superb clarity that brought it to the front of the pack. If you are looking for transparency and clarity the BMR is hard to beat even at double the price. After you spend a month with the BMR it's hard to go back to anything else. I know that sounds silly but it's what I experienced.

You can look at data all you want but the listening test tells the real story for me.

 

[Ron Texas]

For my thread about EQ/PEQ I'm curious if you have used the Peace Equalizer or the PC Equalizer add-ons for Equalizer APO. If you have used them what was the result and final ideas about those add-ons?

Thank you for making me aware of these add on programs. Equalizer APO has an example config file for selective delay included. I tried a modification of it, but it did not improve anything. Now I have to look at Peace and PC.

By the way, VLC has some PEQ capability built in.

 

[YouCanCallMeGeorge]

If you are looking for transparency and clarity the BMR is hard to beat even at double the price. After you spend a month with the BMR it's hard to go back to anything else. I know that sounds silly but it's what I experienced.
You can look at data all you want but the listening test tells the real story for me.

I agree that in the end the listening test is the only one that matters; and we listen to the speaker, not the data.

I haven't seen anyone who has actually listened to the speaker say that he doesn't like it. And I have seen a couple of reviews (one of those was a blind test) that chose the BMR over the Kef R3.

Room size is a potential problem for the BMRs. My listening room [sounds better than "place of exile", yes?] is only 11' by 11'. (I could use the 12 x 12 room, but the smaller one is better when other factors are considered.) In a 12 x 12 room, Steve Dallas found that the BMRs sounded best in a narrow range of head height. That would not be acceptable to me, long term.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...semi-objective-review-road-show-stop-1.18828/

I'm using a pair of Rythmic L12's with LS50 originals. High pass is at 100 hz using the DSP built into the Crown XLS1502. That DSP also provides a bitof delay which works nicely in my setup although in a different room delay of the subs rather than the mains might work. Equalizer APO is providing system wide EQ.

In light of the above, your setup—LS50s with L12 subs—may be the best for my small room.

On the other hand, the Activities Committee Chair is amenable wearing noise cancelling headphones in the living room while she watches TV and I play the stereo. (Headphones—not noise cancelling—are often in use now, as I do not watch much TV.) In that case, the BMRs are a possibility.

 

[YouCanCallMeGeorge]

RME ADI 2 FS driving Neumann KH 310A

Nice speakers. Not sure there would be enough money left for other necessary equipment.

 

[q3cpma]

A search for "8361A measurement by S&R" turned up the Macy's Men's Style Guide.
Also showed a thread in this forum, but I did not see the measurements on the first page...
Do you have a link to the measurements?

Sorry for the shortening: https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...-mit-voll-koaxialer-treiberanordnung-im-test/

I saw the first, and perhaps only page of this paper on the AES E-library page. Side note: In a past work life I traveled to Hope, AR a fair bit. Our plant was just down the street from the Klipsch building. A coworker thought enough of Mr. Klipsch to give me a brief history of him and his work.

Available here: https://downloads.ctfassets.net/4zj...l_Loudspeakers_with_Integrated_Waveguides.pdf