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Critique my system upgrade

Chrise36

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Nice speakers. Not sure there would be enough money left for other necessary equipment.
What else would you need?Dsp can be done on software if the PEQ is not enough. I would add room treatment and a better sub in the way like an ELAC 3030 which has auto eq and is low latency. I heard it recently with a friend who actually bought it and this sub is really cancelling room modes.The RME does many things and is very practical and the speakers i dont think you can find better for the price.
 
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YouCanCallMeGeorge

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Interesting, but I'm clearly out of my league when attempting to interpret the results.

"Measurement of the intermodulation distortion with a multi-tone signal with EIA-426B spectrum and 12 dB crest factor for a maximum of 3% distortion component. In relation to 1 m in the free field, a level of 104 dB as Leq and 116 dB as Lpk is achieved." <-- per google translate

Sounds like the test signal has "noise peaks" 12 times the effective signal level, which induces 3% IMD in the response, with output equivalent to 104 dB at one meter; 116 dB peak.

My first reaction would be that 3% IMD can't be good, but perhaps the 12x peak value is extreme compared to what can be expected in practice.
 
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YouCanCallMeGeorge

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q3cpma

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Interesting, but I'm clearly out of my league when attempting to interpret the results.

"Measurement of the intermodulation distortion with a multi-tone signal with EIA-426B spectrum and 12 dB crest factor for a maximum of 3% distortion component. In relation to 1 m in the free field, a level of 104 dB as Leq and 116 dB as Lpk is achieved." <-- per google translate

Sounds like the test signal has "noise peaks" 12 times the effective signal level, which induces 3% IMD in the response, with output equivalent to 104 dB at one meter; 116 dB peak.

My first reaction would be that 3% IMD can't be good, but perhaps the 12x peak value is extreme compared to what can be expected in practice.
Even without skill, just compare it with other top speakers measured by S&R:
KH420A:
neumann_messlabor_7.jpg

8361A:
8361-MLT.png


The 8361A seem to be playing a bit louder (4 dB ?), but still has a mostly similar IMD in the important band (1~6 kHz). Furthermore, the tweeter IMD is inexistant in both, which shows that the Ones' midrange certainly doesn't modulate the tweeter in any significant way.
 

amper42

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I agree that in the end the listening test is the only one that matters; and we listen to the speaker, not the data.

Room size is a potential problem for the BMRs. My listening room [sounds better than "place of exile", yes?] is only 11' by 11'. (I could use the 12 x 12 room, but the smaller one is better when other factors are considered.) In a 12 x 12 room, Steve Dallas found that the BMRs sounded best in a narrow range of head height. That would not be acceptable to me, long term.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...semi-objective-review-road-show-stop-1.18828/

The BMRs sound great when you are within 9' or less of the speakers. That tends to lend itself well to a smaller room. My guess is they would sound quite nice in a 11'x11' room as long as the tweeter is near ear level. (stands between 24-28")
 
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YouCanCallMeGeorge

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The BMRs sound great when you are within 9' or less of the speakers. That tends to lend itself well to a smaller room. My guess is they would sound quite nice in a 11'x11' room as long as the tweeter is near ear level. (stands between 24-28")
Based on Steve Dallas' experience, I think you are right. Thing is that he had to prop himself up with pillows to be at exactly the right height to get into the sweet spot. This is consistent with the vertical fall-off chart. The positioning was so finicky that he mentioned it again in his follow-up review, which was done in his larger media room. "No holding the tongue just right here", or words to that effect. I want to relax while I listen.
 

amper42

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Based on Steve Dallas' experience, I think you are right. Thing is that he had to prop himself up with pillows to be at exactly the right height to get into the sweet spot. This is consistent with the vertical fall-off chart. The positioning was so finicky that he mentioned it again in his follow-up review, which was done in his larger media room. "No holding the tongue just right here", or words to that effect. I want to relax while I listen.

I never felt my BMRs offered a small listening window. In fact, they are pretty good even 70 degrees off axis. However, I do like the tweeter near ear level. I originally set mine up 18" above ear level on some small stands on a desk across the room. While they sounded fine, once I lowered the speaker so the tweeter was about 3" above my ear level and 9' away they really started to sing and the clarity was like nothing else I have tested. Perhaps, that's the sweet spot Steve is talking about?
 
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YouCanCallMeGeorge

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I never felt my BMRs offered a small listening window. In fact, they are pretty good even 70 degrees off axis. However, I do like the tweeter near ear level. I originally set mine up 18" above ear level on some small stands on a desk across the room. While they sounded fine, once I lowered the speaker so the tweeter was about 3" above my ear level and 9' away they really started to sing and the clarity was like nothing else I have tested. Perhaps, that's the sweet spot Steve is talking about?
Yes, Steve was adjusting his ear height in relation to the tweeter. My room is 11 x 11'. If I put the speakers at the corners of the back wall, pointed toward my seat, and put the seat 18" from the front wall, my ears are 9' from the faces of the speakers. That may work, but it seems like I would be operating very close to the limits of the geometry.
 
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YouCanCallMeGeorge

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Even without skill, just compare it with other top speakers measured by S&R:
KH420A: The 8361A seem to be playing a bit louder (4 dB ?), but still has a mostly similar IMD in the important band (1~6 kHz). Furthermore, the tweeter IMD is inexistant in both, which shows that the Ones' midrange certainly doesn't modulate the tweeter in any significant way.
The KH420 and 8361A are out of the question due to price.
The KH310 is an excellent speaker, and tempting even though it gobbles up almost my entire budget. After some consideration, I decided I don't want to be in a spot where I have to spend over $4k if I want to try a different set of speakers.
 

q3cpma

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The KH420 and 8361A are out of the question due to price.
The KH310 is an excellent speaker, and tempting even though it gobbles up almost my entire budget. After some consideration, I decided I don't want to be in a spot where I have to spend over $4k if I want to try a different set of speakers.
Yeah, that was for demonstration purposes. Personally, I'd really look at the R3 with some light EQ.
 
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YouCanCallMeGeorge

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Yeah, that was for demonstration purposes. Personally, I'd really look at the R3 with some light EQ.
I have pretty much settled on the R3s, with some EQ. I can always add a subwoofer if I think the low bass is lacking. If it weren't for the exceptionally enthusiastic reviews of the BMRs, I would be done with speaker selection.
 
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YouCanCallMeGeorge

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I've decided on the following: (your comments are welcome)
Speakers: KEF R3
Power Amp: Buckeye Hypex NC252MP (250W) (I checked the gain on the amp. Looks like it needs ~1.7V for full output.)
Volume Control: Schiit Sys (I want a knob, if for no other reason than the ability to verify the signal to the amp is turned down.)
DAC & preamp: Schiit Modi 3+ (max out 2V)

Streaming, room correction, and speaker equalization will be done on the PC. This way I can learn about the different tools and how they work without spending a ton of money. Later, I can install dedicated hardware to run the system, if I wish.

For room correction and speaker equalization I'll start with REW + rePhase, with miniDSP UMIK-1.

If I need a sub, I'll use Rhythmik L12. The L12 has a 24 dB/octave low pass filter built in; I'll begin without a high pass filter on the R3s so as to keep the rest of the system simple.

NONE of the equipment in my original list made the final cut.

I offer my sincere thanks to all who commented.
 

Bear123

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The Denon has the same THD as my existing Onkyo (0.08%). Maybe that is good enough; maybe the very low distortion of the NAD makes an audible difference. That's something I should look into further. The two channel Denon unit is half the price, has the streamer. Not sure if Audyssey is available as an option with the two channel unit.
The Denon, without fretting over an external amp or DAC(while limiting yourself to 2 channels only) provides a signal with .004% SINAD. Also gives you the ability to use a center channel if you'd like, for TV/movies, which is drastically beneficial compared to relying on a phantom image that only works when dead center.

It has all the functionality for high fidelity: bass management, speaker eq, sub eq. It will probably be cheaper than attempting to cobble together a convoluted system of various amps, preamps, DAC's, eq solutions etc that lack the basic functionality of the Denon.

If you want to chase better numbers on paper(i.e. lower SINAD), and dump more power into the KEF's than they can handle(which the Denon can already do), you could add an external amp to potentially increase SINAD to -97 dB(.001%). This way, your speakers at modest volume will produce .501% distortion rather than .504% distortion using the Denon's internal amp/DAC. This assumes keeping the volume rather low...speaker distortion will be much higher in most cases as you turn up the volume.

If the goal is high fidelity, a pair of good speakers along with a pair of good subs will be much better than any pair of speakers without subs within a reasonable price range(or perhaps any price). This is because subs can be placed where they need to be for improved frequency response i.e. eliminating nulls; speakers cannot as you are constrained to where they need to go for imaging.

Essentially, if you want to put a system together that has the potential for the highest fidelity....the framework must include dual subs, bass management, speaker eq, and sub eq. Without these essentials, fidelity will be compromised.

Edit: You are using a PC so will have all this capability!

An idea:
Denon X3700 $800-$1200
Revel F35 $1200....M105/M106 if bookshelves and stands are preferred.
Rythmik L12 pair $1070(can go bigger and/or ported if you want, depending on needs)
Total $3470
Room in the budget for a center channel and streamer if you'd like.
I'd add a Umik-1 mic if you don't have it for $100 that will allow optimal placement of subs and perhaps even speakers if you have placement flexibility.

Edit: looks like you just made a decision. PC based gives you a lot of control, didn't realize this was a desktop system, so most of my post probably doesn't apply, oh well. Figure I'll leave it all typed out just for another perspective if nothing else.

The R3's seem like pretty amazing speakers!

Also remember, subs aren't just about improving extension, but also about improving sound quality no matter how low speakers play. My towers play to 25 Hz in my room but they are very significantly better with subs. I would take bookshelf version of my towers with subs long before I would downgrade to my towers without subs. Even though I hate bookshelves on stands.
 
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Chrise36

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[/QUOTE]
I've decided on the following: (your comments are welcome)
Speakers: KEF R3
Power Amp: Buckeye Hypex NC252MP (250W) (I checked the gain on the amp. Looks like it needs ~1.7V for full output.)
Volume Control: Schiit Sys (I want a knob, if for no other reason than the ability to verify the signal to the amp is turned down.)
DAC & preamp: Schiit Modi 3+ (max out 2V)

Streaming, room correction, and speaker equalization will be done on the PC. This way I can learn about the different tools and how they work without spending a ton of money. Later, I can install dedicated hardware to run the system, if I wish.

For room correction and speaker equalization I'll start with REW + rePhase, with miniDSP UMIK-1.

If I need a sub, I'll use Rhythmik L12. The L12 has a 24 dB/octave low pass filter built in; I'll begin without a high pass filter on the R3s so as to keep the rest of the system simple.

NONE of the equipment in my original list made the final cut.

I offer my sincere thanks to all who commented.
The only problem i see is the Schiit preamp has no output for subs and the balance problems of the volume control and i do not know if that would be audible though.Speakers and amps are very good.Be sure you have no problems with DC noice noise as i have problems with the same modules and have a listen to the speakers if you can.Measurements is an indication for a good speaker but i would have a listen before i buy.
 

Bear123

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The only problem i see is the Schiit preamp has no output for subs and the balance problems of the volume control and i do not know if that would be audible though.Speakers and amps are very good.Be sure you have no problems with DC noice noise as i have problems with the same modules and have a listen to the speakers if you can.Measurements is an indication for a good speaker but i would have a listen before i buy.
If I were doing bookshelf speakers(which are cheaper/easier to order and return), I might be tempted to order something like the KEF R3 along with something like Revel M105/106 due to the different designs. Dispersion is quite different between the designs, so seems like one might be able to form a clear preference for one or the other despite all being objectively excellent.
 
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YouCanCallMeGeorge

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The Denon, without fretting over an external amp or DAC(while limiting yourself to 2 channels only) provides a signal with .004% SINAD. Also gives you the ability to use a center channel if you'd like, for TV/movies, which is drastically beneficial compared to relying on a phantom image that only works when dead center.
The Denon is $1200 at Crutchfield. Does your low limit of $800 mean that you know of a dealer who sells a new one at that price?
The two channel Buckeye Hypex NC252 is available for $500.

My room is only 11 x 11'. I may be wrong, but it doesn't seem like a center speaker will make much difference.

It has all the functionality for high fidelity: bass management, speaker eq, sub eq. It will probably be cheaper than attempting to cobble together a convoluted system of various amps, preamps, DAC's, eq solutions etc that lack the basic functionality of the Denon.
If I do need a sub: The sub has its own low pass filter, 24 dB/octave. There is some difference of opinion as to whether it is necessary to add a high pass filter to the main speakers. I'm sure I don't have my own opinion now, but I am willing to experiment and take advice from others when the time comes. So, it may not be necessary to add upstream components to the system if I add sub(s).

If you want to chase better numbers on paper(i.e. lower SINAD), and dump more power into the KEF's than they can handle(which the Denon can already do), you could add an external amp to potentially increase SINAD to -97 dB(.001%). This way, your speakers at modest volume will produce .501% distortion rather than .504% distortion using the Denon's internal amp/DAC. This assumes keeping the volume rather low...speaker distortion will be much higher in most cases as you turn up the volume.
I'm not in a position to disagree about the numbers, nor do I have any reason to question them. I do know that the Hypex amp has measurably less distortion and a measurably lower price. So what's not to like? (Besides, I break out in hives when I see all that goop that won't be used. It's not goop if there is a need for it; definitely goop if no need.)

If the goal is high fidelity, a pair of good speakers along with a pair of good subs will be much better than any pair of speakers without subs within a reasonable price range(or perhaps any price). This is because subs can be placed where they need to be for improved frequency response i.e. eliminating nulls; speakers cannot as you are constrained to where they need to go for imaging.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this. However, the room is so small that I thought it best to see how much the bass resonates without the subs.
 
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YouCanCallMeGeorge

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If I were doing bookshelf speakers(which are cheaper/easier to order and return), I might be tempted to order something like the KEF R3 along with something like Revel M105/106 due to the different designs. Dispersion is quite different between the designs, so seems like one might be able to form a clear preference for one or the other despite all being objectively excellent.
I'll think about this. I'll have time to think, as I don't plan to order the speakers until I have the upstream components and have connected them to the existing Kef Q15s for testing.
 
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