Shouldn't a Phono Stage Be Like a DAC? Why so expensive?

[svart-hvitt]

Please tell me which book documents "the re-mixing of Sgt. Peppers: the digital version has been heavily clipped on the whim of the so-called engineer in charge of the project, while the vinyl version has not. Because everyone in the business now thinks that vinyl sounds better than digital, so all the connoisseurs will be listening to vinyl, and all the troglodytes who only notice 'loudness' will be listening to digital." And the deliberate killing of TIDAL through the record companies creation of the vinyl revival. I'd love to read that book. The comedy would be off the map.

In N o r w a y, we have long-lasting experience with trolls so we know one when we see one.

You use the fact that there is, naturally, no book on Sgt Pepper’s recent remaster and no book on Tidal as evidence that profit growth and marketing are not relevant to understand the audio industry. Profit making and marketing are well-documented in the literature and hence there is no conspiracy to use that general, universal insight in specific cases like Sgt Pepper and Tidal. BTW, I used the words general/universal and specific deliberately.

You argumentation strategy was described in Ludvig Holberg’s Erasmus Montanus 300 years ago. From Wikipedia:

«Rasmus Berg, a Danish farmer's son, has been given a costly education in Copenhagen. When he returns, he speaks Latin to his parents, and Latinises his name as Erasmus Montanus. He wants to "dispute", and goes on to "prove" a number of absurdities, such as relying on argument from ignorance to prove that his mother is a rock. He is contrasted to his brother Jacob who is only interested in knowledge which is of practical application.

His persistent arguing gets him into trouble with the parents of his fiancée Lisbet, who refuses the marriage until he stops claiming that the Earth is round. His fiancée begs him to retract his statements that the Earth revolves around the sun, but he refuses. After a village plot tricks him to enlist for military service and leave the city, he reconsiders and makes the retractions, allowing him to marry Lisbet».

Berg, Rasmus’ family name, means «mountain» in the Scandinavian languages. To me, Erasmus Montanus was a forerunner of today’s trolling on the internet.

So I always think about Erasmus Montanus when I encounter certain argumentation strategies.

 

[Analog Scott]

Excerpt from Audiophile Review 5/22/17

"Something I have been doing of late when I know there is likely to be a vinyl release of a project is to capture a parallel feed of the mastered signal to my digital workstation specifically for the vinyl version. This vinyl pass is without any extra digital limiting (used to make digital platforms sound LOUD) and is completely unnecessary for analogue records and the cuts sound a lot better without it. This was how I cut the masters for the new stereo mix of Sgt. Pepper. The master lacquer discs were half-speed mastered from an un-limited feed whereas all the digital platforms will have digital limiting applied."

"The limited version was used as the source on all of the digitally delivered formats. It was kept high resolution for the Blu-ray and down-sampled and dithered for the non high resolution formats (e.g. CD). I should point out here that I only applied very gentle limiting as thankfully the brief for this album was not to slam it against the wall with excessive level and allow the whole thing to breathe. This is obviously a good thing for sonics."

Miles Showell - Mastering Engineer Abbey Road Studios

Old CD version of LSD:

Re-mixed version:

(Thanks Archimago)

Please don't quote me out of context.

 

[Analog Scott]

In N o r w a y, we have long-lasting experience with trolls so we know one when we see one.

Great to know you guys are so good at identifying mythical creatures.

You use the fact that there is, naturally, no book on Sgt Pepper’s recent remaster and no book on Tidal as evidence that profit growth and marketing are not relevant to understand the audio industry. Profit making and marketing are well-documented in the literature and hence there is no conspiracy to use that general, universal insight in specific cases like Sgt Pepper and Tidal. BTW, I used the words general/universal and specific deliberately.

Simply pointing out that your comments were a non sequitur. Sorry you did not follow.

You argumentation strategy was described in Ludvig Holberg’s Erasmus Montanus 300 years ago. From Wikipedia:

«Rasmus Berg, a Danish farmer's son, has been given a costly education in Copenhagen. When he returns, he speaks Latin to his parents, and Latinises his name as Erasmus Montanus. He wants to "dispute", and goes on to "prove" a number of absurdities, such as relying on argument from ignorance to prove that his mother is a rock. He is contrasted to his brother Jacob who is only interested in knowledge which is of practical application.

His persistent arguing gets him into trouble with the parents of his fiancée Lisbet, who refuses the marriage until he stops claiming that the Earth is round. His fiancée begs him to retract his statements that the Earth revolves around the sun, but he refuses. After a village plot tricks him to enlist for military service and leave the city, he reconsiders and makes the retractions, allowing him to marry Lisbet».

Berg, Rasmus’ family name, means «mountain» in the Scandinavian languages. To me, Erasmus Montanus was a forerunner of today’s trolling on the internet.

So I always think about Erasmus Montanus when I encounter certain argumentation strategies.

my argument strategy in this case is very simple. I showed the disconnect between the actual topic and your argument.

 

[Analog Scott]

I'm Not keen on how this is going.

If Tidal are struggling it’s got nothing to do with vinyl, it’s always been hard to get people to pay for things on the Internet when they can have it for free. The USP of tidal is also a hard sell to the masses, many stream free or They are happy with services like you tube and happy to pay less and stream lower quality bit rates from Spotify etc

Now must we ruin threads by dragging them into the format war ditch ?

Apparently one can not talk about vinyl in any constructive form on these forums without that happening. Oh, and just a point of fact, *I* did not introduce the subject of vinyl on this thread. It seems the only thing one is allowed to say about vinyl on these forums is that it is terrible. If one does not abide by that belief they are part of "the problem."

And now we see this crazy idea that vinyl and the vinyl resurgence is a deliberate tool in a conspiracy to bring down digital media. I did learn something from this thread, that there is a deep rooted paranoia about vinyl and it's presence in audiophilia. I look forward to being accused of being a paid agent by the powers that be in the promotion of vinyl and the campaign for the downfall of all things digital. Just wait. It's coming....

 

[svart-hvitt]

Great to know you guys are so good at identifying mythical creatures.



Simply pointing out that your comments were a non sequitur. Sorry you did not follow.



my argument strategy in this case is very simple. I showed the disconnect between the actual topic and your argument.

This is an offer you can’t refuse; Kindle version of Erasmus Montanus for free:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008477TBY/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1516554330&sr=8-5

It’s good literature, a classic of a comedy, written 300 years ago.

 

[Frank Dernie]

1. The picture disc/CD/ DVD box? I have that one
2. Of course spurious vibration pickup in record players is worth worrying about. Do you believe that any designer or manufacturer of turntables, pickup arms or cartridges would go with you on that assertion? It does matter to the sound of vinyl playback. It can be profoundly be affected by design choices. It can vary widely in the nature of it's sonic impact on playback. A great deal of the sonic signature of vinyl playback, the thing you cite as an asset to the sound of vinyl playback is due to differences in how the various types of feedback find their way back into the stylus. Understanding it, manipulating it and controlling it through design parameters of the gear does matter. It is worth worrying about.

That is the set, yes.
I meant worry in the literal sense. I don't find it a worry - I dick about with it.
It is going to be there, that is why I always say it is possible to tune a record player to taste.
Do I think current record player manufacturers are knowledgeable about the sources and effects? Not most of them. Reading what I have seen published about record players is disappointingly full of bollox and misunderstandings. Maybe there is somewhere I could find sensible discussion about record player engineering but I haven't found anywhere yet and the "gurus" I have read don't know their arse from their elbow technically.

 

[Thomas savage]

<snip>
I look forward to being accused of being a paid agent by the powers that be in the promotion of vinyl and the campaign for the downfall of all things digital. Just wait. It's coming....

If this is the case, you need to up your game else I fear you will get the sack with the ‘powers that be’ wanting a refund to boot.

 

[Analog Scott]

This is an offer you can’t refuse; Kindle version of Erasmus Montanus for free:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008477TBY/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1516554330&sr=8-5

It’s good literature, a classic of a comedy, written 300 years ago.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338604/reference
A wonderful short film about a dysfunctional musical family. And it has my vision of a classic mythical troll. I highly recommend it.

 

[Analog Scott]

If this is the case, you need to up your game else I fear you will get the sack with the ‘powers that be’ wanting a refund to boot.

Guess I'll have to keep my day job. If only it were just days.....

 

[Analog Scott]

That is the set, yes.
I meant worry in the literal sense. I don't find it a worry - I dick about with it.
It is going to be there, that is why I always say it is possible to tune a record player to taste.
Do I think current record player manufacturers are knowledgeable about the sources and effects? Not most of them. Reading what I have seen published about record players is disappointingly full of bollox and misunderstandings. Maybe there is somewhere I could find sensible discussion about record player engineering but I haven't found anywhere yet and the "gurus" I have read don't know their arse from their elbow technically.

https://sme.co.uk/about/
http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/about/team.php
And this one is a bit interesting. I suspect he has a pretty decent understanding of the subject
http://implantica.com/about-us/management-team/

 

[svart-hvitt]

https://sme.co.uk/about/
http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/about/team.php
And this one is a bit interesting. I suspect he has a pretty decent understanding of the subject
http://implantica.com/about-us/management-team/

At one point I started to wonder how much money and effort does it take to reach the pinnacle of vinyl playback. As much as I like the engineering, touch and feel, it doesn’t make sense to pay over $100k (Continuum, for example) to be able to look at a nice player playing vinyl discs at the highest level.

The vinyl comeback in audiophile circles is sometimes a good example of the emperor’s new clothes (another Holberg classic). Paying tens of thousands of dollars for a playback device in 2017 is madness if hifi is the primary objective. This is my opinion, which I believe is pretty well documented by theory, empirical data and market «forces».

EDIT: «The emperor’s new clothes» is not by Holberg, but by H. C. Andersen, another Dane.

 

[Purité Audio]

Fidelity,

‘the degree of exactness with which something is copied or reproduced’.

Keith

 

[Don Hills]

... vinyl concentric content ...

I see what you did there.

 

[Wombat]

So you would rather troll me than offer up actual information on the subject being discussed. Work on your prioritites

Calling a member a troll is pretty 'off'. I simply decided to stop playing your game and provided feedback.

 

[Analog Scott]

At one point I started to wonder how much money and effort does it take to reach the pinnacle of vinyl playback. As much as I like the engineering, touch and feel, it doesn’t make sense to pay over $100k (Continuum, for example) to be able to look at a nice player playing vinyl discs at the highest level.

The vinyl comeback in audiophile circles is sometimes a good example of the emperor’s new clothes (another Holberg classic). Paying tens of thousands of dollars for a playback device in 2017 is madness if hifi is the primary objective. This is my opinion, which I believe is pretty well documented by theory, empirical data and market «forces».

EDIT: «The emperor’s new clothes» is not by Holberg, but by H. C. Andersen, another Dane.

Value is in the eye of the beholder. Sonic excellence is in the ear of the beholder. If one listens to and prefers a 100,000 dollar turntable and has the money to afford it I see nothing wrong about it. There is an old joke about a prospector back in the days of the California gold rush who hit the mother load and came to cash it in. He walked out with a million dollars cash. This was when a million dollars was a lot of money! Anyway the banker who cashed him out saw him out on the streets a few days later. He greeted him and congratulated him on his new found wealth. The old prospector confessed that he had spent the entire million dollars over the course of a few days. So the banker asked him how he spent so much money in so little time. The prospector told him that he spent one third of his fortune on booze, one third on women and he wasted the other third.

 

[Analog Scott]

Another one of your pedantic circular arguments. Tedious.

and yet you still continue to participate.

Any thoughts on Cosmik's assertion that "The death of TIDAL is another example where progress will be reversed whether you like it or not. Without the 'vinyl revival' and the on-going pernicious attacks on digital, might more people have subscribed to lossless streaming?"

Or his assertion that "My suspicion is that audio development has reached the end of the road. It is actually perfect: there is no demand for anything better than what could be achievable now for very low cost." And how that would relate to the latest design efforts that have come out of HK that are pretty far from "very low cost?" Are Toole. Olive and the designers at HK milking the unsuspecting audiophile community with high priced new designs when we already have very low cost "perfect" speakers?

 

[Wombat]

and yet you still continue to participate.

Any thoughts on Cosmik's assertion that "The death of TIDAL is another example where progress will be reversed whether you like it or not. Without the 'vinyl revival' and the on-going pernicious attacks on digital, might more people have subscribed to lossless streaming?"

Or his assertion that "My suspicion is that audio development has reached the end of the road. It is actually perfect: there is no demand for anything better than what could be achievable now for very low cost." And how that would relate to the latest design efforts that have come out of HK that are pretty far from "very low cost?" Are Toole. Olive and the designers at HK milking the unsuspecting audiophile community with high priced new designs when we already have very low cost "perfect" speakers?

What the heck! Take it up with them.

 

[Blumlein 88]

and yet you still continue to participate.

Any thoughts on Cosmik's assertion that "The death of TIDAL is another example where progress will be reversed whether you like it or not. Without the 'vinyl revival' and the on-going pernicious attacks on digital, might more people have subscribed to lossless streaming?"

Or his assertion that "My suspicion is that audio development has reached the end of the road. It is actually perfect: there is no demand for anything better than what could be achievable now for very low cost." And how that would relate to the latest design efforts that have come out of HK that are pretty far from "very low cost?" Are Toole. Olive and the designers at HK milking the unsuspecting audiophile community with high priced new designs when we already have very low cost "perfect" speakers?

Yes tedious is a very good description. It doesn't take more than about two brain cells to realize no one was saying speakers are perfected. Everything other than transducers you can make that argument. So as is your norm you jump on the only thing that didn't fit. Sad.

 

[Thomas savage]

Some posts deleted..,

Off topic , needlessly argumentative and or pointless back and forth.

@Analog Scott , your posting style/habit is often needlessly argumentative . You are purposely causing disruption, trying to create argument when non really exists.

Iv indulged you long enough as have our members , your formally on notice for behaving in a way I consider disingenuous, your not here to spread knowledge and understanding but to give ‘ a bunch of objectivist ‘ a bloody nose.

It’s very tedious Scott, it’s not inspired any content of value.

@Wombat , clearly you’ve got a little frustrated, Iv deleted some of your back and forth with analogscott . I’d put him in the ignore list and carry on enjoying the forum without the distraction.

 

[Wombat]

Sounds fair. I couldn't let the trolling accusation stand without response, though.