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Shouldn't a Phono Stage Be Like a DAC? Why so expensive?

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sergeauckland

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I would expect the amount of cartridge output due to this, one of many, bit of spurious vibration, will depend on the record support. Something with vacuum hold down or a properly engineered clamp system will have the least, something with a felt mat perhaps the most (perhaps why so many people like Linns and Roksans ???)
But why bother about quantifying it?
AFAIK there hasn't been any published engineering analysis of the distributed mass dynamic response of a record player system since computer power and software cost made such a thing plausible. I don't see any likelihood of one being done by any company currently in the business, which proceeds with marketing phrases not far removed from witchcraft and technically erroneous statements based on applying static thinking to a dynamic system. If one has been done it has not been published. A well known cartridge manufacturer did approach a friend of mine to do an analysis of the dynamics and magnetic linearity of their cartridges. The first look showed significant areas of error so they decided not to go ahead with the engineering work... Neat and inexpensive solution.
I don't concern myself with the relative magnitude of spurious vibration pickups inevitable in my record players. Experiments when I did work in the business showed that eliminating all of them was not possible anyway.
I rejoice in the ability to tune the sound of record players to taste, if that is what one likes, which isn't feasible with CD. If one doesn't want the faff LPs are no longer the only low cost music carriers they were when I started buying recorded music in the mid 1960s so there is another choice.
Mostly I listen to CDs but still enjoy my old LPs whenever I feel like listening to them. I probably won't ever buy a new one again unless part of a set with compelling artwork like a Laura Marling set I bought.

I think this gets to the essence of the issue with vinyl. Why bother with the science and engineering. When LPs were all there was for home music playback, it made sense for manufacturers to keep improving the engineering to get better and better results. Lower wow and flutter, lower rumble, lower speed drift, better isolation and so on. Ditto with cartridges, better tracking, lower distortion etc. CD changed all that. If one wants technically good results at home, there has been a system that does that for now 35 years, and playing LPs is now done for reasons of nostalgia, because that's what the music one wants to play happens to be on, or just because one prefers the sound of distortion, noise and wow&flutter.

Turntable and cartridge manufacturers now sell the sizzle, not the steak, as the steak is as tough as old boots.

I love my two turntables as examples of superlative engineering and enjoy an evening of playing LPs, and even occasionally 78s, but any quality I get out of it is more of a surprise than expected as if I want quality, I have CDs for that.

S.
 

dallasjustice

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Turntable and cartridge manufacturers now sell the sizzle, not the steak, as the steak is as tough as old boots.
 

Purité Audio

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They are pleasant to listen to though, I don’t believe there is anything wrong with enjoying vinyl or valves or tape as long as you realise they are not ‘ technically better’
just that you enjoy them for what they are.
Keith
 

svart-hvitt

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They are pleasant to listen to though, I don’t believe there is anything wrong with enjoying vinyl or valves or tape as long as you realise they are not ‘ technically better’
just that you enjoy them for what they are.
Keith

Concur!

Personal enjoyment is not an exercise of objectivity. How could it ever be, except in an authoritarian society?

Why, on the other hand, vinylists talk about the medium’s technical superiority, I cannot understand.
 

Frank Dernie

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They are pleasant to listen to though, I don’t believe there is anything wrong with enjoying vinyl or valves or tape as long as you realise they are not ‘ technically better’
just that you enjoy them for what they are.
Keith
Quite so, this is what I have always advocated. LPs were the only affordable hifi medium for the first 20 years of my record buying life!
 

Cosmik

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Concur!

Personal enjoyment is not an exercise of objectivity. How could it ever be, except in an authoritarian society?
The danger, however, is that a myth propagates that ends up restricting what you are allowed to listen to, anyway...

Spread a superstition strongly enough and you can reverse progress. Case in point, the re-mixing of Sgt. Peppers: the digital version has been heavily clipped on the whim of the so-called engineer in charge of the project, while the vinyl version has not. Why is that? Because everyone in the business now thinks that vinyl sounds better than digital, so all the connoisseurs will be listening to vinyl, and all the troglodytes who only notice 'loudness' will be listening to digital.

The death of TIDAL is another example where progress will be reversed whether you like it or not. Without the 'vinyl revival' and the on-going pernicious attacks on digital, might more people have subscribed to lossless streaming?
 
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Analog Scott

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I don't consider countering your typical response to be a waste of time. Work on your credibility. Next question, please. :rolleyes:
So you would rather troll me than offer up actual information on the subject being discussed. Work on your prioritites
 

svart-hvitt

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The danger, however, is that a myth propagates that ends up restricting what you are allowed to listen to, anyway...

Spread a superstition strongly enough and you can reverse progress. Case in point, the re-mixing of Sgt. Peppers: the digital version has been heavily clipped on the whim of the so-called engineer in charge of the project, while the vinyl version has not. Why is that? Because everyone in the business now thinks that vinyl sounds better than digital, so all the connoisseurs will be listening to vinyl, and all the troglodytes who only notice 'loudness' will be listening to digital.

The death of TIDAL is another example where progress will be reversed whether you like it or not. Without the 'vinyl revival' and the on-going pernicious attacks on digital, might more people have subscribed to lossless streaming?

Yes! Agree! Very interesting perspective.

The question is: Who is feeding the public? Are they feeding themselves or are they in the authoritarian hands of an agenda that forces upon the public a certain diet to take out unearned rents from the public?

I always think about this film scene, from Silence of Lambs, when I see behaviour that goes against one own’s interest.

This is also the most disgusting film clip I ever saw, so CAUTION is advised!

 

Analog Scott

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"The Beast was a creature I did not know". I have several of her CDs
Spurious vibration pickup in record players is not worth worrying about because it is inevitable.
1. The picture disc/CD/ DVD box? I have that one
2. Of course spurious vibration pickup in record players is worth worrying about. Do you believe that any designer or manufacturer of turntables, pickup arms or cartridges would go with you on that assertion? It does matter to the sound of vinyl playback. It can be profoundly be affected by design choices. It can vary widely in the nature of it's sonic impact on playback. A great deal of the sonic signature of vinyl playback, the thing you cite as an asset to the sound of vinyl playback is due to differences in how the various types of feedback find their way back into the stylus. Understanding it, manipulating it and controlling it through design parameters of the gear does matter. It is worth worrying about.
 

Analog Scott

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The danger, however, is that a myth propagates that ends up restricting what you are allowed to listen to, anyway...

Spread a superstition strongly enough and you can reverse progress. Case in point, the re-mixing of Sgt. Peppers: the digital version has been heavily clipped on the whim of the so-called engineer in charge of the project, while the vinyl version has not. Why is that? Because everyone in the business now thinks that vinyl sounds better than digital, so all the connoisseurs will be listening to vinyl, and all the troglodytes who only notice 'loudness' will be listening to digital.

The death of TIDAL is another example where progress will be reversed whether you like it or not. Without the 'vinyl revival' and the on-going pernicious attacks on digital, might more people have subscribed to lossless streaming?
That is a pretty wild conspiracy theory ya got there. Thanks for the laugh.
 

Cosmik

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That is a pretty wild conspiracy theory ya got there. Thanks for the laugh.
You are obviously very susceptible to conspiracy theories, but I never mentioned anything about a conspiracy - just a bandwagon.
 

Analog Scott

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You are obviously very susceptible to conspiracy theories, but I never mentioned anything about a conspiracy - just a bandwagon.
You said the person who transferred the Sergeant Peppers Heart Club Band 50th anniversary remix clipped the signal "on a whim" "Because everyone in the business now thinks that vinyl sounds better than digital, so all the connoisseurs will be listening to vinyl, and all the troglodytes who only notice 'loudness' will be listening to digital."

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Clipping the transfer "on a whim." Please explain how that happens.

Actually this kind of does explain one thing, your attitude towards vinyl. Sorry to hear you are haunted by such paranoia. It must suck to think the sound quality of your media of choice is being deliberately sabotaged by EVERYONE in the business just to force an inferior medium on you because they mistakenly ALL believe it to be a superior medium.
 

Analog Scott

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Profit growth and marketing are not a conspiracy. They are well documented in books on social theory and in empirical data.
Please tell me which book documents "the re-mixing of Sgt. Peppers: the digital version has been heavily clipped on the whim of the so-called engineer in charge of the project, while the vinyl version has not. Because everyone in the business now thinks that vinyl sounds better than digital, so all the connoisseurs will be listening to vinyl, and all the troglodytes who only notice 'loudness' will be listening to digital." And the deliberate killing of TIDAL through the record companies creation of the vinyl revival. I'd love to read that book. The comedy would be off the map.
 

Cosmik

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The question is: Who is feeding the public? Are they feeding themselves or are they in the authoritarian hands of an agenda that forces upon the public a certain diet to take out unearned rents from the public?
My suspicion is that audio development has reached the end of the road. It is actually perfect: there is no demand for anything better than what could be achievable now for very low cost. The only way to achieve 'progress' is to go backwards! Not a conspiracy, but a symbiosis between audiophiles desperate for 'new' experiences and manufacturers looking for a way to sell more product.

In the world of televisions, they simply have to live with their similar situation: the viewer can see that 8K will be no better than 4K. There's not much scope for going brighter or bigger. And they can't go 'vinyl'...
 

Analog Scott

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My suspicion is that audio development has reached the end of the road. It is actually perfect: there is no demand for anything better than what could be achievable now for very low cost. The only way to achieve 'progress' is to go backwards! Not a conspiracy, but a symbiosis between audiophiles desperate for 'new' experiences and manufacturers looking for a way to sell more product.

In the world of televisions, they simply have to live with their similar situation: the viewer can see that 8K will be no better than 4K. There's not much scope for going brighter or bigger. And they can't go 'vinyl'...
OK....so would you include the likes of Floyd Toole and Sean Olive in that? Is all the on going development of new speaker designs just a ploy to sell overpriced speakers and other products while we already have low cost speakers that can not objectively be improved upon?
 

Thomas savage

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I'm Not keen on how this is going.

If Tidal are struggling it’s got nothing to do with vinyl, it’s always been hard to get people to pay for things on the Internet when they can have it for free. The USP of tidal is also a hard sell to the masses, many stream free or They are happy with services like you tube and happy to pay less and stream lower quality bit rates from Spotify etc

Now must we ruin threads by dragging them into the format war ditch ?
 

Cosmik

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Please tell me which book documents "the re-mixing of Sgt. Peppers: the digital version has been heavily clipped on the whim of the so-called engineer in charge of the project, while the vinyl version has not.

Excerpt from Audiophile Review 5/22/17

"Something I have been doing of late when I know there is likely to be a vinyl release of a project is to capture a parallel feed of the mastered signal to my digital workstation specifically for the vinyl version. This vinyl pass is without any extra digital limiting (used to make digital platforms sound LOUD) and is completely unnecessary for analogue records and the cuts sound a lot better without it. This was how I cut the masters for the new stereo mix of Sgt. Pepper. The master lacquer discs were half-speed mastered from an un-limited feed whereas all the digital platforms will have digital limiting applied."


"The limited version was used as the source on all of the digitally delivered formats. It was kept high resolution for the Blu-ray and down-sampled and dithered for the non high resolution formats (e.g. CD). I should point out here that I only applied very gentle limiting as thankfully the brief for this album was not to slam it against the wall with excessive level and allow the whole thing to breathe. This is obviously a good thing for sonics."

Miles Showell - Mastering Engineer Abbey Road Studios

Old CD version of LSD:

Lucy_In_The_Sky_1987-%2BAnotated.png


Re-mixed version:
Lucy_In_The_Sky%2B-%2BAnnotated.png


(Thanks Archimago)
 

Sal1950

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The only way to achieve 'progress' is to go backwards! Not a conspiracy, but a symbiosis between audiophiles desperate for 'new' experiences and manufacturers looking for a way to sell more product.
And a media looking to make more money from the advertisers!
What would Stereophile be today without Mikey and the vinyl resurgence he trumpeted?
Look at the content and advertisements, cut out the vinyl concentric content and you'd have a 40 page magazine, if it still existed at all.
 
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