Kinda beating a dead horse but... (non blind level-matched DAC comparison)

[MDAguy]

I think of the guy at Audioquest. He was a bloody traveling hifi salesman in California. Gets in on this ground floor that wire can sound different. Starts a company and it is still a big player. He had no technical skills or knowledge. How did he know how to make better sounding cable? He never even came up with a good story to tell the con. He had no electronics knowledgeable guys working for him. And how is it 40 years later they are still improving their cables, and it always costs more. Not even once does someone discover a cheaper way to make a better cable? He still has no R&D tale to tell his victims. And yet they can make several grades of cable and know how to make each level just a little better. Based upon what? How about a blind test of the 1st AQ cable vs the latest? By now the difference must have grown massive. And the cable thing is just one of many such stories we can ferret out of the industry.

Reminds me of PSAudio and our friend Paul... not an engineer, and when I watch his videos on engineering topics, even with my 30 years ago old EE diploma I can't help but wonder if this guy really knows what he's talking about and how he managed to build this company (I assume with the help of a few real engineers).. but some of the things he says make me shake my head.

That isn't the same thing as looking at a company like McIntosh that pioneered audio amplification, was a historical part of the Grateful Dead sound stage as well as the Woodstock audio system, and then there was all of their commercial contracts building application for various industrial and commercial needs... Started by two engineers, and still run by real engineers who know how to build a great product, mostly in the USA (NY for that matter), and able to sustain amazing re-sale value over the decades...

Two companies, two very different vibes .. one a snake oil salesman vibe, the other just engineers trying to make the best audio equipment they can.

 

[MDAguy]

MDAguy

I have no problem with what you're saying but most high-end manufacturers want us to believe there is a difference. Let's take Schiit, go to their Yggdrasil product page. The blurb says (I'm quoting from memory) something along the lines if sigma-delta DACs aren't good enough for medical use, why would they be enough for audio? Of course failing to explain that their Analog Devices medical DAC chip is superior only in DC accuracy, which is totally irrelevant to audio, at least taken on its own. It seems misleading. I have no problem with someone who buys an Audemars Piguet watch, although I could never afford it. Hell I'd buy one just if I could. My problem starts when they try to convince buyers it runs better than a Casio.

I mean, go to SBAF where everyone can tell the DAC chip in a complete DAC box...

there is a point of extremes where this does matter tho.. I mean the DAC chip in a phone vs a DAC designed for a hi-fi system (even a cheap one) will have different levels of analogue distortions (that might or night not be audible) because of the interface between the analogue and the digital and something as simple as how far the power supply is from the digital section.. But again, whether a 50 year old like me can discern this, even with a high resolution audio system is the question? I can't .... doesn't mean someone else can't (maybe they have some dog DNA in them).

 

[Vasr]

Well I'm more pragmatic, at least in this case.

I am even more pragmatic. I am convinced for myself that I can't possibly hear a difference on the DAC alone but I don't go on a Jihad that nobody can hear a difference.

When I see some of the rabid, cultish and often offensive diatribe against groups that might be convinced the other way, I am also convinced that this has nothing to do with audio itself.

 

[abdo123]

I think even with your current test you raised the bar high, next time include a headphone jack from your phone or laptop. and trust me you will hear the difference.

Also an important point to consider is what difference do you want to hear? if you play a track with 8-bit of effective dynamic range range ofcourse you won't hear a difference. if you try to play a track with 16-bit of effective dynamic range (although such tracks can be counted on fingers) you will also definitely hear a difference if you lower the noise floor of your room enough.

 

[gn77b]

Blumlein 88

This almost makes me afraid as it'd prove our mind is way way stranger than imagined. It's almost as if science is right when saying our prefrontal cortex is but a tiny piece of our brain

 

[gn77b]

I think even with your current test you raised the bar high, next time include a headphone jack from your phone or laptop. and trust me you will hear the difference.

Also an important point to consider is what difference do you want to hear? if you play a track with 8-bit of effective dynamic range range ofcourse you won't hear a difference. if you try to play a track with 16-bit of effective dynamic range (although such tracks can be counted on fingers) you will also definitely hear a difference if you lower the noise floor of your room enough.

My friend told me to bring the headphones and I did (Grado SR80, AKG K7XX, Sony MDR1A, not even close to high end but not terrible). Problem is nor the Roksan or the Atoll have headphone outs so we were limited to 2 of the DACs that had them and instant switching wasn't possible. So we gave up soon because we couldn't tell anything obvious.

 

[abdo123]

Also consistency is of absolute importance, just because two cars have the same max speed doesn't mean that both of them can maintain that speed for the same amount time, or they're both equally efficient run on fuel, or whether both have the same acceleration. it also doesn't mean they both can handle tough terrain equally as good.

Also we don't really know whether that 10$ DAC is actually significantly worse in measurements than the expensive ones, price here means nothing. you should pick two or three DACs that are measured here on this forum and have been proved that they have drastically different performances.

 

[abdo123]

My friend told me to bring the headphones and I did (Grado SR80, AKG K7XX, Sony MDR1A, not even close to high end but not terrible). Problem is nor the Roksan or the Atoll have headphone outs so we were limited to 2 of the DACs that had them and instant switching wasn't possible. So we gave up soon because we couldn't tell anything obvious.

i meant just a 3.5mm Cable to RCA into the amp. not actually using headphones. level matching will be a bitch but these things are trully not made equally.

 

[gn77b]

abdo123

"just because two cars have the same max speed doesn't mean that both of them can maintain that speed for the same amount time "

That's not what I was implying. I meant to say that they try to make us believe there's always better, as if human hearing was an infinite that no man-made device could satisfy. No car reached speed of light, right? So there must be a faster one.

"Also we don't really know whether that 10$ DAC is actually significantly worse in measurement"

If you read my original post again there were 5 DACs involved.

 

[abdo123]

With my comment on 'tough terrain' these are the tracks i use to evaluate overall system performance, you might find them useful on future testing endeavors.

Alina Baraz - Show Me (Tweeter test. Lots of moving air.)

Infected Mushroom - Becoming Insane (Binaural vocals)

Madonna - Vogue (Moving sources)

Ana Caram - Desafinado (Atmosphere and space test)

Steely Dan - Hey Nineteen (Reverb handling)

Steely Dan - Peg (Harmonic vocals)

Explosions In The Sky - Losing the Light (Serious sub-bass stress test in intro)

George Thorogood - One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer (Excellent blues guitar and soundstage)

 

[M00ndancer]

This almost makes me afraid as it'd prove our mind is way way stranger than imagined. It's almost as if science is right when saying our prefrontal cortex is but a tiny piece of our brain

Don't worry about it, our minds are way stranger than anyone can imagine. The brain/mind creates the reality we hear/see/feel and so on...

So we are all living in a imaginary world especially created and adapted to us, courtesy of our brain. No surprise we such a hard time getting anything right without the brain getting in the way.

 

[abdo123]

If you read my original post again there were 5 DACs involved.

it doesn't matter, until you use measured DACs, all of these DACs could theoretically have similar SINAD scores, and overall performance. that's what i meant by price doesn't matter.

Now if you would do a double blind test showing different DACs, all of differing (confirmed) performance, then this discussion would have actual scientific merit. you hear me?

 

[gn77b]

With my comment on 'tough terrain' these are the tracks i use to evaluate overall system performance, you might find them useful on future testing endeavors.

Alina Baraz - Show Me (Tweeter test. Lots of moving air.)

Infected Mushroom - Becoming Insane (Binaural vocals)

Madonna - Vogue (Moving sources)

Ana Caram - Desafinado (Atmosphere and space test)

Steely Dan - Hey Nineteen (Reverb handling)

Steely Dan - Peg (Harmonic vocals)

Explosions In The Sky - Losing the Light (Serious sub-bass stress test in intro)

George Thorogood - One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer (Excellent blues guitar and soundstage)

I'll (we'll) redo the test. We're planning to do it in another acoustic environment.

Trust me, we used all sorts of well recorded music. In all these years I got a feeling of what's good for testing. And remember, I said I did hear major sound stage and imaging differences a long while ago and I know what songs were playing because I was (at least at the moment) awestruck. We did use those songs.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I am even more pragmatic. I am convinced for myself that I can't possibly hear a difference on the DAC alone but I don't go on a Jihad that nobody can hear a difference.

When I see some of the rabid, cultish and often offensive diatribe against groups that might be convinced the other way, I am also convinced that this has nothing to do with audio itself.

I think your over-reacting.

Not everyone has the same hearing acuity. Not everyone has training to hear the differences as well, and that can matter on some material. Not everyone has the same quality of gear source to transducer (and room). So one test doesn't mean no one can hear a difference.

Yet when we have some gear like DACs that can all have very, very low measured distortion and noise we'd think no one should hear a difference yet every bozo, and his wife in the kitchen claim it is obvious. I think it is reasonable to push the burden of proof heavily in their direction and be very skeptical. And yes I know bozo is a derogatory term. I'm a bit low on patience with some of the ridiculous claims and don't feel the need to be overly charitable. On other days I can be more sanguine about it and not over-react myself.

I mean of all the gear we use, DACs .........ARE A SOLVED PROBLEM. Get a decent one and move on. They are at the point almost anytime you find some minor real difference it is going to be due to minor FR differences in filtering.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I'll (we'll) redo the test. We're planning to do it in another acoustic environment.

Trust me, we used all sorts of well recorded music. In all these years I got a feeling of what's good for testing. And remember, I said I did hear major sound stage and imaging differences a long while ago and I know what songs were playing because I was (at least at the moment) awestruck. We did use those songs.

List of the songs please. Thx!

 

[gn77b]

List of the songs please. Thx!

I can't remember all of them but (although I hate this kind of music it's good for testing) the staging/imaging differences were with Best Audiophile Voices 3. Don't hate, it's just for testing

Also one of my favs both musically and for testing Miles Davis - Violet

Miles Davis - Kind of blue

Decca Recording of Gotterdammerung conducted by Solti

Lucien Dubuis Trio with Marc Ribot - Bal les masques (this one I'm using because it impressed me on some Raidho speakers I heard once)

A lot of Tracy Chapman

Abed Azrie - Suerte

Lhasa - The Living Road (this is where I though I could hear differences with the Roksan CD player)

Michael Hedges

...and many many others

 

[gn77b]

I think your over-reacting.
Yet when we have some gear like DACs that can all have very, very low measured distortion and noise we'd think no one should hear a difference yet every bozo, and his wife in the kitchen claim it is obvious.

That's exactly what I mean. If a renowned conductor told me they could hear a difference I'd put it on trained ears (although they reportedly have hearing loss from conducting but I remember reading a study which said people with partial hearing loss could discern differences normal people couldn't). But it looks like everyone can hear astounding differences with $10 headphones.

And talking about the Roksan CD player. I removed its cover to see how it's implemented. The DAC board is completely separate. A BB chip, OPA I/V and buffers, 78XX regulators. No discrete output stages, no fancy stuff. Aliexpress level basically. And it wasn't cheap. Oh and it looks like it was due a hotfix as they reverted the channels on the PCB and corrected it by cutting the traces and soldering wires afterwards. High end my ass

 

[Pdxwayne]

I can't remember all of them but (although I hate this kind of music it's good for testing) the staging/imaging differences were with Best Audiophile Voices 3. Don't hate, it's just for testing

Also one of my favs both musically and for testing Miles Davis - Violet

Miles Davis - Kind of blue

Decca Recording of Gotterdammerung conducted by Solti

Lucien Dubuis Trio with Marc Ribot - Bal les masques (this one I'm using because it impressed me on some Raidho speakers I heard once)

A lot of Tracy Chapman

Abed Azrie - Suerte

Lhasa - The Living Road (this is where I though I could hear differences with the Roksan DAC)

Michael Hedges

...and many many others

I am going through the same process myself. See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ktb-vs-topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/

Done with listening tests using moderate cost headphones. No obvious difference. Next is speakers listening test.

 

[BDWoody]

I mean the DAC chip in a phone vs a DAC designed for a hi-fi system (even a cheap one) will have different levels of analogue distortions (that might or night not be audible) because of the interface between the analogue and the digital and something as simple as how far the power supply is from the digital section.

Take a look at the review for the LG phone. Certainly in the 'inaudible' range of distortion and noise. There's no way I could tell the difference between that and any other DAC I've got.

Are you thinking it should be inherently worse?

 

[Vasr]

I think your over-reacting.

I wasn't referring to the OP. It is about beating-the-dead-horse-fest. You are overthinking what I said.

It is all the piling on that happens whenever this subject is brought out against all of those that can hypothetically hear as if just entertaining that thought is an affront. This has to do with personal issues/failings/insecurities of those that indulge in it not audio.

Like Bogleheads or Baseball fans. It is not about what the others believe but rather that what they believe somehow threatens one's belief system.