CD / SACD Player question

[Chippyboy]

I wonder if some kind soul could help answer a question for me please?

I have for a long time wondered if/how you could get hi-res digital signal out of an SACD player. Of course i know none of them will output this over SPDIF. However, can they output it (either PCM at 24/96, 24/192 etc or DSD) over HMDI? And therefore can a DAC with suitable HDMI input, decode and play such streams?

Thanks

 

[Pluto]

Unless you enjoy banging your head against a wall, move on.

I'm not saying what you want is impossible, merely that you may find yourself on an awfully long and winding road, possibly without any real sonic reward when you finally reach an endpoint.

 

[BDWoody]

I wonder if some kind soul could help answer a question for me please?

I have for a long time wondered if/how you could get hi-res digital signal out of an SACD player. Of course i know none of them will output this over SPDIF. However, can they output it (either PCM at 24/96, 24/192 etc or DSD) over HMDI? And therefore can a DAC with suitable HDMI input, decode and play such streams?

Thanks

My Integra processor will take SACD over HDMI, but I don't know of many stand-alone DAC's that have an HDMI input. There's I2S, which uses HDMI cables and connectors, but they aren't compatible in terms of standards. That's a road I've never gone down, as I haven't seen the reason to.

Edit: My SACD player is an OPPO. I don't believe all SACD players are able to do this.

 

[mansr]

I have for a long time wondered if/how you could get hi-res digital signal out of an SACD player. Of course i know none of them will output this over SPDIF.

The old PS3 models that play SACD will output 88.2 kHz, 24-bit over S/PDIF (optical).

 

[Chippyboy]

Thanks folks.

The other end of the equation is my new NAD M33 (I don't have it yet, but getting one) for which there is both an HDMI ARC input and an HDMI board available. Of the HDMI board, NAD say "Audio resolution up to 24/192", so I am assuming it can handle it.

So do most SACD players output hi-res over HDMI? Or only a few select models?

 

[Pluto]

Why don't you ask NAD? They should be able to give you some pointers as to whether what you ask is actually possible.

In theory, licensed Scarlet Book (i.e. SACD) players are not supposed to offer hi-res (ISTR hi-res is defined as > 16/48) digital output (PCM or DSD). Now whether this would be permitted if the output is via encrypted HDMI, I know not.

There was a similar discussion here on ASR which didn't seem to get very far.

 

[Chippyboy]

Why don't you ask NAD? They should be able to give you some pointers as to whether what you ask is actually possible.

In theory, licensed Scarlet Book (i.e. SACD) players are not supposed to offer hi-res (ISTR hi-res is defined as > 16/48) digital output (PCM or DSD). Now whether this would be permitted if the output is via encrypted HDMI, I know not.

There was a similar discussion here on ASR which didn't seem to get very far.

Thanks - I guess I could. The other thread you linked was interesting, but actually discussing a greater challenge, which is to achieve DSD output to an external DAC. I'm not so hung up on DSD and would be quite happy with good old PCM tbh. Apart from anything else, I am not sure if the M33 even accepts DSD input. And if it does, it converts it to PCM anyway. (It has to, otherwise things like Dirac and tone controls cannot work).

24/96 or 24/192 over HDMI would do me just fine. Whether I can hear the difference between that and red book, I seriously doubt. But it might make me feel better ;-)

 

[Chippyboy]

Hmmmmm. This is interesting. I was just taking a look at the manual for the Sony UDP-X800M2 blu ray player. (Which I do not own, but might consider). It says this:

Audio Output

[48kHz/96kHz/192kHz PCM]​

[48kHz]/[96kHz]/[192kHz]: Sets the sampling​

frequency for the PCM signals output from​

the DIGITAL OUT (COAXIAL) jack.​

​

Does this REALLY mean you can play an SACD and it will output 192kHz over coax???

 

[sailor2005]

This one has HDMI inputs and takes DSD thru HDMI.... https://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/hdacc-ii-4k/
I would say most SACD-capable Bluray/DVD players will output DSD or a DSDtoPCM stream thru HDMI. But not the dedicated SACD players.

 

[Pluto]

I am not sure if the M33 even accepts DSD input. And if it does, it converts it to PCM anyway. (It has to, otherwise things like Dirac and tone controls cannot work).

Good, and correct, observation.

[regarding Sony player] Sets the sampling frequency for the PCM signals output from the DIGITAL OUT (COAXIAL) jack.

Does this mean there is a menu item at which you set the required output sampling rate?

 

[Chippyboy]

Does this mean there is a menu item at which you set the required output sampling rate?

Yes, exactly so. I guess it could refer maybe only to disks with no-copyrighted content on them, or something? But it does seem like maybe, just maybe, the player can output DSD content from an SACD, converted to PCM 24/192, over coax? Would be marvellous if true!

(I know it will convert DSD to PCM - there's a setting for that, relating to the HDMI output.)

 

[Pluto]

it does seem like maybe, just maybe, the player can output DSD content from an SACD, converted to PCM 24/192, over coax?

I can't imagine what else it could mean, but that is certainly contrary to the rules that, I assume, are still in play for Scarlet Book licensing. That, in turn, would get Sony involved in an unfair competition law suit if anybody thought it was worth going to law over SACD. Unlikely!

 

[mansr]

I can't imagine what else it could mean, but that is certainly contrary to the rules that, I assume, are still in play for Scarlet Book licensing. That, in turn, would get Sony involved in an unfair competition law suit if anybody thought it was worth going to law over SACD. Unlikely!

It could be sending a 192 kHz signal with content limited to CD quality.

 

[Pluto]

192 kHz signal with content limited to CD quality

Now that would be a bore, not to say a malicious falsehood.

 

[PatriciaP]

DSD can be recorded onto a pendrive using certain Blu-ray players. Look at audiophile-style website for details.

If you get access to DSD in this way and have a dac capable of playing native DSD then you keep the signal intact, and have a hi Def recording. It's much more involved than just playback, intentionally as Sony never intended that SACD be capable of being copied.

 

[MTVhike]

According to NativeDSD's spreadsheet listing DSD-capable DACs, the Sony BDP-X800 is capable of decoding multichannel DSDs. I assume that means DSD files, not just SACDs. I hope that means I can buy one of their DSD files, put it on a USB flash drive, and have the X800 play it.

 

[PatriciaP]

According to NativeDSD's spreadsheet listing DSD-capable DACs, the Sony BDP-X800 is capable of decoding multichannel DSDs. I assume that means DSD files, not just SACDs. I hope that means I can buy one of their DSD files, put it on a USB flash drive, and have the X800 play it.

You are in luck! Pg 31 details all the music files which it can read on USB. DSF and DSDIFF can be read only on USB. Amazon reviews are mixed however, as it seems to be slow.
Manual is on the link http://bit.ly/2oQvSJ2

 

[MTVhike]

A little off topic, but relevant. I got the sample DSD set from NativeDSD, put it into my computer music folder, and added it to my MusicBee library. It was able to play it. That same folder is shared on my network which also includes a NAD BluOS-enabled amp and, although it could see the folder, it couldn't see the DSD files. I then took one file and, in MusicBee, created a FLAC copy, and the NAD could see and play that.
Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all "conventional" digital music files (MP3, WAV, FLAC, etc.) PCM and only DSF and DSD are DSD?

 

[Pluto]

DSD files are typically .DSF or .DFF

All the others are PCM or something that becomes PCM when decompressed.

 

[MTVhike]

Thanks, Pluto, that's what I thought.