Optimizing SACD playback

[marktrumpet]

Currently I have two sources of digital music:
- Sony BDP-6200 for playing SACDs (stereo, not multichannel): DSD output via HDMI
- Logitech Squeezebox Touch for ALAC files (some up to 96/24) coax output

Both are fed into a Denon 4700H which acts as a DAC and and preamp. Poweramp is external.

I'm wondering what I'm missing by not having something like a Marantz 30n SACD player and it's amazing DACs and analog output. It's unclear to me how good the DAC in the Denon is, and if I would be better of using the analog output of a dedicated DAC/streamer/CD player, whatever that may be. According to the review here, the Denon is quite good at pure direct analog input.

 

[GXAlan]

I own the Marantz SA-10.

The benefits you get from the higher end products are vanishingly small and can be difficult to ABX. That said, the big benefits are mechanical: quieter drive when working with physical media.

I have done the measurements that show that both the Marantz SA-10 and Topping D90 would be indistinguishable, using PK Metric, from a theoretical direct digital download to your brain. However, the way that they deviate inaudibly from theoretical perfection leads to the scenario where comparing recordings of the SA-10 and Topping D90 generates a different PK Metric which suggests the difference is audible.

Two reasonable DACs with a large PK Metric when tested with real music...

I've previously shown that my SA-11s2 and Panasonic UB9000 sound similarly and measure similarly with DeltaWave. In this post, I'm sharing some preliminary data showing a) a measurable PK Metric difference between two reasonable DACs with real music b) the DAC with a ~10 dB worse 1 kHz SINAD...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The real strength of the 30n is that it provides network playback to integrated amps.

I would save your money and upgrade speakers and subs. But if you do have the money to spare or desire to play physical media with a quiet drive noise, the 30n pretty much gets you 98% off the SA-10. The SA-KI Ruby and SA-12 get you to 99%. There is a big jump in price for very small improvements.

 

[Chrispy]

Currently I have two sources of digital music:
- Sony BDP-6200 for playing SACDs (stereo, not multichannel): DSD output via HDMI
- Logitech Squeezebox Touch for ALAC files (some up to 96/24) coax output

Both are fed into a Denon 4700H which acts as a DAC and and preamp. Poweramp is external.

I'm wondering what I'm missing by not having something like a Marantz 30n SACD player and it's amazing DACs and analog output. It's unclear to me how good the DAC in the Denon is, and if I would be better of using the analog output of a dedicated DAC/streamer/CD player, whatever that may be. According to the review here, the Denon is quite good at pure direct analog input.

I think you're overthinking it. What would make the Marantz player particularly better?

 

[r042wal]

I have a Marantz SA14S1 SACD player that connects directly to my McIntosh C-48 preamp with RCA. I have ripped all my SACDs and put them on my Aurender music server that connects to my PS Audio DirectStream DAC. The DAC has balanced outputs to the preamp. When I AB the same SACD between my Marantz and my Aurender I would be hard pressed to be able to notice any difference.

 

[Galliardist]

I have a Marantz SA14S1 SACD player that connects directly to my McIntosh C-48 preamp with RCA. I have ripped all my SACDs and put them on my Aurender music server that connects to my PS Audio DirectStream DAC. The DAC has balanced outputs to the preamp. When I AB the same SACD between my Marantz and my Aurender I would be hard pressed to be able to notice any difference.

I’m hard pressed to believe that Marantz ever made a player that bad! (My subjective opinion, use or reject as you wish)

 

[r042wal]

I’m hard pressed to believe that Marantz ever made a player that bad! (My subjective opinion, use or reject as you wish)

Sorry that went over my head . Why do you think it's bad? I'm quite pleased with it.

 

[marktrumpet]

I think you're overthinking it. What would make the Marantz player particularly better?

Well, that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out here. As someone that has always been enchanted with Marantz products, I'm easily swayed by their marketing and technical descriptions!

 

[Galliardist]

Sorry that went over my head . Why do you think it's bad? I'm quite pleased with it.

I should perhaps refer you to Amir’s review at this point, but I’ll just say that it’s the only DAC I’ve ever heard smear the attack on bass strings on classical guitar recordings, repeatedly.
I took two speakers off my shortlist a few years ago because I didn’t realise it was that DAC.

Still, if you are pleased with yours, don’t let me (or the many PS Audio sceptics on this forum put you off.

 

[r042wal]

I should perhaps refer you to Amir’s review at this point, but I’ll just say that it’s the only DAC I’ve ever heard smear the attack on bass strings on classical guitar recordings, repeatedly.
I took two speakers off my shortlist a few years ago because I didn’t realise it was that DAC.

Still, if you are pleased with yours, don’t let me (or the many PS Audio sceptics on this forum put you off.

I did not know Amir had reviewed a PSA DirectStream. I guess I got off lucky because I don't listen to classical So I take it you have owned a DirectStream? I'm curious what you replaced it with.

 

[r042wal]

Good review @Galliardist . I also read JA's review. Until recently, I followed many audiophile forums with an interest in learning and sharing. I've been into this since the early 70s. What I've discovered is the more you know, the dumber you sound to stupid people. I came to the conclusion I am not an audiophile, only a music lover. This forum is one of only a few I frequent.

Concerning my DirectStream, I bought it on the used market and got a deal on the older PerfectWave Mk II DAC. Then I found a DirectStream upgrade kit for sale for 50% on the used market. Bottom line, I got into a DirectStream Sr. for a very good price. However, I would never buy another PSA product again new or used for reasons outside of my DAC. I'm happy with what I have for a music lover only. Thanks for the post.

 

[Galliardist]

I did not know Amir had reviewed a PSA DirectStream. I guess I got off lucky because I don't listen to classical So I take it you have owned a DirectStream? I'm curious what you replaced it with.

No. I sat through some speaker demonstrations where this DAC was used, as I said. Only when I asked for a different source to be used did I pick up on this, and without measurements at the time I thought it was probably something with me rather than the DAC at the time.

My current player is a Marantz SA-10, not usual for this forum because of the cost if nothing else.

 

[Galliardist]

Good review @Galliardist . I also read JA's review. Until recently, I followed many audiophile forums with an interest in learning and sharing. I've been into this since the early 70s. What I've discovered is the more you know, the dumber you sound to stupid people. I came to the conclusion I am not an audiophile, only a music lover. This forum is one of only a few I frequent.

Concerning my DirectStream, I bought it on the used market and got a deal on the older PerfectWave Mk II DAC. Then I found a DirectStream upgrade kit for sale for 50% on the used market. Bottom line, I got into a DirectStream Sr. for a very good price. However, I would never buy another PSA product again new or used for reasons outside of my DAC. I'm happy with what I have for a music lover only. Thanks for the post.

We are, I suspect, all music lovers first. We look for a greater connection of some kind as audiophiles: aesthetic, emotional or intellectual.

Nothing wrong with that approach!

 

[GXAlan]

My current player is a Marantz SA-10, not usual for this forum because of the cost if nothing else.

+1 on the SA-10

Mine measures a bit better than the one Amir tested,

Post in thread 'Marantz SA-10 Review (SACD Player & DAC)'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-10-review-sacd-player-dac.31686/post-1532634

And when doing calculations it is truer to the source than the Topping D90 even though your 1 kHz SINAD is worse. This is the SA-10 comparison against the D90 to a direct decode of the DSD data.

Two reasonable DACs with a large PK Metric when tested with real music...

I've previously shown that my SA-11s2 and Panasonic UB9000 sound similarly and measure similarly with DeltaWave. In this post, I'm sharing some preliminary data showing a) a measurable PK Metric difference between two reasonable DACs with real music b) the DAC with a ~10 dB worse 1 kHz SINAD...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Chrispy]

Well, that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out here. As someone that has always been enchanted with Marantz products, I'm easily swayed by their marketing and technical descriptions!

Then plug in the Marantz and be swayed? I'd rather use the processing options in the Denon aside from simple dac.

 

[Trell]

Then plug in the Marantz and be swayed? I'd rather use the processing options in the Denon aside from simple dac.

Me too, but I've to use the Oppo BSD-93EU conversion to PCM instead of DSD output to avoid an issue with the Denon AVR-X4200W (a 2015 year model). The issue with SACD multi-channel is that LFE is 10dB too low when my Denon handles the DSD.

There is an old thread here on another forum, and I still wonder if it's a problem: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/lo...to-sacds-using-the-dsd-setting.1429939/page-6

 

[Snoopy]

Best way to play SACDs and DSD files (nativeDSD) is ripped to a server like roon. Upsampled with HQPlayer to DSD256/512 straight into a DAC that supports DSD direct stream (Rohm, akm).

But that's just my opinion.

 

[r042wal]

Best way to play SACDs and DSD files (nativeDSD) is ripped to a server like roon. Upsampled with HQPlayer to DSD256/512 straight into a DAC that supports DSD direct stream (Rohm, akm).

But that's just my opinion.

What is the benefit of upsampling to DSD256/512?

 

[Snoopy]

What is the benefit of upsampling to DSD256/512?

Bypassing the DACs Internal modulators and replacing them with a filter from HQPlayer that sounds better.

I didn't believe it at first either but I tried HQPlayer recently with a bunch of DSD modulators and pcm filters.

But if you are interested into details it's worth it seeking out a forum where HQPlayer is better covered. (Roon forum, audiophile Style)
Not sure if the developer is on ASR.

You could basically write a book about the different modulators alone.

 

[r042wal]

I have an Aurender music server instead of HQPlayer. You had me curious because there is a certain segment in the audio community that think you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear by upsampling. The finished rendition can never be better than the source after upsampling, but as you say, through the use of filters you can definitely get some effects more to your liking.

There is a company, maybe HD Tracks, that is selling DSD versions of major labels but I am almost positive they are taking a Redbook CD, upsampling it to DSD256 and passing it back to us at a profit. It will never be better than the original 16/44 pressing.

My DAC has gone through several firmware updates (FPGA chip) and at one time you select three different filters. The latest firmware no longer offers that option which is fine by me.

 

[Snoopy]

I have an Aurender music server instead of HQPlayer. You had me curious because there is a certain segment in the audio community that think you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear by upsampling. The finished rendition can never be better than the source after upsampling, but as you say, through the use of filters you can definitely get some effects more to your liking.

There is a company, maybe HD Tracks, that is selling DSD versions of major labels but I am almost positive they are taking a Redbook CD, upsampling it to DSD256 and passing it back to us at a profit. It will never be better than the original 16/44 pressing.

My DAC has gone through several firmware updates (FPGA chip) and at one time you select three different filters. The latest firmware no longer offers that option which is fine by me.

Aurender does a dsd to pcm conversation with their FPGA chip.
Totally different thing from HQPlayer.

You want to bypass the internal DAC as much as possible by using DSD input to avoid the modulators doing their thing.
Best way is upsample to the DACs highest Input rate. Use whatever modulator in HQPlayer you prefer and send that to the DAC.

With a DSD direct DAC this gets send directly to the output stage.

FPGQ chips will still do a conversation, ESS chips still pass the signal through the DACs modulators.

This doesn't turn a sows ear into a silk purse obviously. But it certainly makes a difference who attempts to make the silk purse.. the results will still be different


But I'm not here to preach something. It's just my humble opinion after actually trying it myself.