Optimizing SACD playback

[GXAlan]

But I'm not here to preach something. It's just my humble opinion after actually trying it myself.

Have you done double blind tests or measured the output?

I believe you when you say it sounds different but I wonder if it is possible to identify the measurements.

As I keep pointing out, the analog output from the D90 and SA-10 can be shown to be audibly identical using PK metric calculations to the raw digital file but just hit the threshold of audibility when comparing the two recordings, suggesting that it is possible that they sound different. And the SA-10 is theoretically closer to the digital file.

I cannot reliably ABX it, but there are plenty of times I bought something new and cheap and it displaced the old expensive and times where I bought new and cheap and I returned the new one.

 

[Snoopy]

Have you done double blind tests or measured the output?

I believe you when you say it sounds different but I wonder if it is possible to identify the measurements.

As I keep pointing out, the analog output from the D90 and SA-10 can be shown to be audibly identical using PK metric calculations to the raw digital file but just hit the threshold of audibility when comparing the two recordings, suggesting that it is possible that they sound different. And the SA-10 is theoretically closer to the digital file.

I cannot reliably ABX it, but there are plenty of times I bought something new and cheap and it displaced the old expensive and times where I bought new and cheap and I returned the new one.

No idea how to measure what feels like a difference in soundstage and depth.
Not really interested either.. you are using a different modulator after all. And there are a lot to choose.

Best thing all you need is a NAA entpoint or a computer connected to the DAC and you can try it for free (30 minutes, 30 day trial).

 

[r042wal]

Aurender does a dsd to pcm conversation with their FPGA chip.
Totally different thing from HQPlayer.

You want to bypass the internal DAC as much as possible by using DSD input to avoid the modulators doing their thing.
Best way is upsample to the DACs highest Input rate. Use whatever modulator in HQPlayer you prefer and send that to the DAC.

With a DSD direct DAC this gets send directly to the output stage.

FPGQ chips will still do a conversation, ESS chips still pass the signal through the DACs modulators.

This doesn't turn a sows ear into a silk purse obviously. But it certainly makes a difference who attempts to make the silk purse.. the results will still be different


But I'm not here to preach something. It's just my humble opinion after actually trying it myself.

Thanks for the post. My Aurender passes DSD (up to DSD512) directly to the PSA DAC. There is an option to turn PCM conversion on/off in the Aurender. I have a good collection of DSD64, DSD128 and DSD256 on my Aurender. Any SACD I buy gets ripped and put on the Aurender.

I wasn't poking fun at you about the sows ear

 

[pkane]

No idea how to measure what feels like a difference in soundstage and depth.
Not really interested either.. you are using a different modulator after all. And there are a lot to choose.

Best thing all you need is a NAA entpoint or a computer connected to the DAC and you can try it for free (30 minutes, 30 day trial).

I’ve heard big differences between modulators in HQPlayer until I did a level-matched, blind test. No identifiable differences found. Oh, and that was with up to DSD512 with a good R2R DAC (Holo Spring) among others.

 

[GXAlan]

No idea how to measure what feels like a difference in soundstage and depth.

Agreed. There isn’t a clear answer to that, but the idea is that over time, we might be able to articulate that in measurements.

I suspect the ultrasonics make a difference based upon Sony DSEE and analysis of the SA-10.

All of the noise shaping options of the SA-10 happens well above the audible range, but there does seem to be subtle differences in what you state, even though it could be intermodulation effects into the audible range. I imagine that the different upsamplers will do that too.

See this post

https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-10-review-sacd-player-dac.31686/post-1532634

Best thing all you need is a NAA entpoint or a computer connected to the DAC and you can try it for free (30 minutes, 30 day trial).

I am really happy with my setup. I just wish it had pre outs for easier integration with subwoofers that lack line level outs. Getting the Marantz is just about being lazy/keeping it simple.

 

[marktrumpet]

A good option might be to use your BDP-6200 to rip your SACD's and make a digiltal library of DSF albums. Then buy one of those Eversolo DMP-A6 streamers for DSF playback and send the signal out the RCA's to your Denon. Then you could sell off your Touch as it wouldn't be needed anymore.

The Eversolo has an excellent DAC. Amir just measured it:

Thanks for the prompt to rip SACDs! I bought the Sony 6200 a couple years ago for the sole reason of using it rip SACD, but then I never got around to it. I finally had a go with it last night, and it works great. I also went down a rabbit-hole of what exactly LMS and squeezebox touch can do these days, and it turns out it can do a lot! I installed a 3rd party applet and now I can output up to 192 kHz 24-bit from coax. Apparently it can also output DSD over PCM with a compatible USB dac, which I don't have. I have converted the dsf files (from the one rip I've done so far) to various PCM sample/bit rates to see what I hear that is different from playing DSD right over HDMI from the disc.

So maybe all I need now is a better DAC than the Denon 4700H. Ideally something that can do DSD. What are the recommendations other than the usual ASR chart with Topping and SMSL killing everybody.

Finally, that Eversolo looks pretty sweet, but I love using LMS so much. Plus it seems to be sold out everywhere.

 

[Chrispy]

Thanks for the prompt to rip SACDs! I bought the Sony 6200 a couple years ago for the sole reason of using it rip SACD, but then I never got around to it. I finally had a go with it last night, and it works great. I also went down a rabbit-hole of what exactly LMS and squeezebox touch can do these days, and it turns out it can do a lot! I installed a 3rd party applet and now I can output up to 192 kHz 24-bit from coax. Apparently it can also output DSD over PCM with a compatible USB dac, which I don't have. I have converted the dsf files (from the one rip I've done so far) to various PCM sample/bit rates to see what I hear that is different from playing DSD right over HDMI from the disc.

So maybe all I need now is a better DAC than the Denon 4700H. Ideally something that can do DSD. What are the recommendations other than the usual ASR chart with Topping and SMSL killing everybody.

Finally, that Eversolo looks pretty sweet, but I love using LMS so much. Plus it seems to be sold out everywhere.

Curious, what is the dac in the 4700 failing at particularly?

 

[marktrumpet]

Curious, what is the dac in the 4700 failing at particularly?

It turns out I can get the DSD files to play through the Denon via the Heos app. I select LMS as a music server within the app, and voila, there you have it!

Pros:
- Sounds great, maybe even better than spinning disc (because HDMI is removed?)
- gapless playback works

Cons:
- Heos app is terrible for navigating my classical collection (e.g. no browse by composer)
- Moving the time slider to go to a different part of the track causes pops and constant low-level static. You have to restart the playlist for it to go away
- Heos can't find LMS, and I have to stop and start the server to get it to show up in the list of music servers
- My mind can't help wondering if one of these Topping/SMSL dacs that measure so well sound better!

 

[marktrumpet]

Update:


So I bought a SMSL DO100. Hooked it up to the Logitech touch via USB and did not play nice. Lots of pops and static on anything above Redbook. I switched to the coax out and things were much better. But for some reason I wasn't enjoying listening to it. I plugged the optical back into my Denon and still was not that happy. The music was harsh and a bit thin. I was wondering what was going on? I tried streaming directly to the Denon via the heos app, and it was much better.


I boxed up the SMSL and submitted the return request on Amazon.


But something still wasn't right. I wasn't enjoying listening through the Touch, and only liked the sound when I streamed directly to the Heos app on the Denon. A couple days passed without actually returning it, then I realized maybe the EDO plugin on the Touch was doing something weird. So I uninstalled it and factory reset the Touch and suddenly everything was back to normal, so I unboxed the SMSL and hooked it up to the Touch coax output and WOW. I was just floored.


Of course I couldn't stream DSD, but I was getting the LMS converted at 88.2/24 and it sounded quite nice and I was hard pressed to tell a difference between that and the DSD stream to Heos. But when it really came together was installing squeezelite on my laptop and hooking it up to the SMSL via USB so I could get the DSD stream into it. And man it sounds good. Like REALLY good.


My plan now is to get a mini PC that runs both squeezelite and LMS, and hook it up via USB to the dac. Then I'll remove the network from the playback equation, save for controlling LMS via an app.


Thanks for all the help here! Maybe someday I'll get one of those fancy Marantz SACD players, but for now I'm very happy.

 

[srkbear]

Hey, my ears are burning because I just wrote a long, bitter, defeated post about this whole byzantine and elusive business of connecting SACD disc players to DACs here:

Post in thread 'PS Audio Ultimate Outlet Review'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...dio-ultimate-outlet-review.37249/post-1705184

But whaddya know, the sunlight peeked through the clouds after all, because writing that rant prompted me to dig through my closet to find the no-brand Chinese HDMi to i2S audio de-embedder I bought a year ago, that at the time seriously bummed me out because I couldn’t get it to work with my Topping d90se. I had it connected from the HDMI audio out of my Sony UBP-x1100ES multidisc player to the i2S input on the Topping, and some circuitry in the chain kept converting the DSD signal to PCM 176.4, no matter what I tried.

That is until today, when I changed the Topping settings to set the DSD flag to pin 15 instead of 14–this is the pinout setting that tells the DAC whether to output PCM or DSD. Default is 14, the de-embedder likes 15. I tried this before when I bought it, but the trick is that you have to turn the DAC off and back on to get it to work—and it sounds flawless! And for an extra bonus it’s playing my Blu ray audio discs at 96khz and 24 bit—I’m jamming to the Steven Wilson remix/remaster of XTC’s Black Sea as I’m writing this

You can buy these things for $59 off eBay—there are literally hundreds of vendors offering them either as a board-only or bundled with an enclosure. And it turns out that it works beautifully!

So there, PS Audio, you can keep the big Perfectwave SACD Transport you sell by highway robbery for $7,000, and I’ll get the same result from China (they haven’t failed me yet) for $59 bucks! Schadenfreude indeed!

 

[Joao Correa]

I have a Marantz SA14S1 SACD player that connects directly to my McIntosh C-48 preamp with RCA. I have ripped all my SACDs and put them on my Aurender music server that connects to my PS Audio DirectStream DAC. The DAC has balanced outputs to the preamp. When I AB the same SACD between my Marantz and my Aurender I would be hard pressed to be able to notice any difference.

Hi ! As I’m new to the digital music, may I ask you what do you use to rip SACD files (in my case to a Eversolo DMP6 Master) ?
Thanks a lot