I wish Etymotic would make a multi-armature IEM.
And in the Shure/Westone form factor so it's actually comfortable an easy to wear OTG. A 2-way ER5SR would be amazing.
I wish Etymotic would make a multi-armature IEM.
And in the Shure/Westone form factor so it's actually comfortable an easy to wear OTG. A 2-way ER5SR would be amazing.
The "high res" RA0401/RA0402 couplers used by Crinacle, Head-Fi and maybe even Amir (depends on the configuration GRAS provided) has less resonance above 10 kHz but should otherwise be identical to the older RA0045 as specified. Afaik Oratory uses both the old and new one.
I agree, and to add to that would be interesting to see such a graph for an over ear headphone to see if there are big differences.Do you have a source for that? I thought Oratory just uses the RA0045 coupler. From that GRAS pdf you linked, the difference between that and the hi-res coupler is actually bigger than I thought (for in-ear headphones at least):
View attachment 90362
That's a significant 6dB difference at 10kHz. This may be an issue for things like determining closeness to or EQing to the Harman target, which was developed using the RA0045 coupler. As for the benefits of Amir's measurements, extra data on unit variance is always useful, as is other data not publicly available on previously measured headphones such as (excess) group delay to determine non-minimum phase regions, and accurate THD/IMD measurements etc.
Crinacle has measured the K702 by the way (comparable GRAS 43AG rig to Oratory's):
Just as a quick mention, I've just done an EQ to the Harman Curve based on Crinicle's measurement of the K702 and it sounds terrible....muddy bass and in fact muddiness throughout frequency range in terms of lack of clarity & definition, also removal of spatial/imaging cues. I think there's something up with the measurement or his particular GRAS setup is not compatible with the current Harman Curve 2018 that we all know (we were discussing this point), his setup might need a new Target Curve or there is something wrong with the measurement or in his "recording chain". Following is the EQ I did using Crinicle's measurement, but I don't suggest anyone try the EQ because it didn't sound good, but this is more for curiosity or discussion purposes:With the consistency of all the GRAS setups I would not expect much value in measuring the same headphones over and over again. The results will be more or less the same as long as the selection of the pinna and coupler stay the same. To my knowledge Oratory, Crinacle and Amir use the latest KB5000/KB5001 pinna with the first and second bend. The "high res" RA0401/RA0402 couplers used by Crinacle, Head-Fi and maybe even Amir (depends on the configuration GRAS provided) has less resonance above 10 kHz but should otherwise be identical to the older RA0045 as specified. Afaik Oratory uses both the old and new one.
In so far we already have a lot of data to look at and compare with each other. If Amir wants to offer any benefit he should measure cans which have not been captured in this ecosystem, yet.
My suggestions:
- SIVGA SV series
- DT 990 Black Special Edition
- cans which can be "fixed" with 3rd party pads
Just as a quick mention, I've just done an EQ to the Harman Curve based on Crinicle's measurement of the K702 and it sounds terrible....muddy bass and in fact muddiness throughout frequency range in terms of lack of clarity & definition, also removal of spatial/imaging cues. I think there's something up with the measurement or his particular GRAS setup is not compatible with the current Harman Curve 2018 that we all know (we were discussing this point), his setup might need a new Target Curve or there is something wrong with the measurement or in his "recording chain".
Yep, I'd like to see Amir measure the K702, as long as his gear is compatible with the published Headphone Harman Curve, which I'm sure he has said it is in recent headphone reviews.
Thanks for your input there, and sorry I knocked your measurement & setup, but there is something wrong somewhere. I know from experience EQ'ing my 3 different headphones (NAD HP50, HD600, K702) to the Harman Curve that I am indeed a Headphone Harman Curve fan, but doing the same thing using your measurement has destroyed the experience. I think there is somekind of a problem with the K702 you measured or something related to your measurement - that is indeed if we are ruling out your rig not being compatible with Harman AE/OE 2018. (I haven't tried doing EQ's using any of your other measurements, eg for my Sennheiser HD600, so I can't rule it out or in if there was something specifically wrong or not with the K702 measurement or some other problem "in the chain").My rig is compatible with Harman AE/OE 2018. I believe Harman switched to the "Hi-Res" couplers for that target.
Thanks for your input there, and sorry I knocked your measurement & setup, but there is something wrong somewhere. I know from experience EQ'ing 3 different headphones to the Harman Curve that I am indeed a Headphone Harman Curve fan, but doing the same thing using your measurement has destroyed the experience. I think there is somekind of a problem with the K702 you measured or something related to your measurement - that is indeed if we are ruling out your rig not being compatible with Harman AE/OE 2018. (I haven't tried doing EQ's using any of your other measurements, eg for my Sennheiser HD600, so I can't rule it out or in if there was something specifically wrong or not with the K702 measurement or some other problem "in the chain").
I think he has the 800s to test, I'm pretty sure the 800 will be objectively "worse" based on other measurementsThe OG HD800.
Thanks for your input there, and sorry I knocked your measurement & setup, but there is something wrong somewhere. I know from experience EQ'ing my 3 different headphones (NAD HP50, HD600, K702) to the Harman Curve that I am indeed a Headphone Harman Curve fan, but doing the same thing using your measurement has destroyed the experience. I think there is somekind of a problem with the K702 you measured or something related to your measurement - that is indeed if we are ruling out your rig not being compatible with Harman AE/OE 2018. (I haven't tried doing EQ's using any of your other measurements, eg for my Sennheiser HD600, so I can't rule it out or in if there was something specifically wrong or not with the K702 measurement or some other problem "in the chain").
Yes, your EDIT does cover some of the points I highlighted. Unit variation, corresponding to me thinking there could have been something wrong with the K702 you measured. I do like the Harman Headphone Curve in all it's glory, so it's not that point that you brought up. In terms of pad wear, that's certainly a thing, but I'm not sure how that would explain that my current EQ for the K702 is great (& accurate sounding in comparison to my room & Harman EQ'd speakers) vs the EQ based on your measurement - I used an Innerfidelity measurement with a Target Curve that has been "calibrated" by Jaakopasanen to make Innerfidelity measurements more accurate (because they are 'wrong' in some ways) - he compared Innerfidelity measurements of a number of headphones to Oratory measurements of the same headphones to see where the differences lie in order to create a "Calibrated" Harman Target Curve that irons out the differences.Sorry, I've made some post-publish edits on my post. Do take a look.
Well, the point is I have built up a knowledge / "expertise" / understanding of the topic of headphones / Harman / some of the science around it / and how to EQ to those targets, so when I see an outlier amidst an otherwise good experience of EQ'ing headphones to the Harman Target, then I have to conclude that there is something wrong with the measurement. The simple point is that Harman EQ's I have for my 3 headphones all sound great and are really quite accurate to my room EQ'd & Harman EQ'd JBL 308 speakers, with the exception being the one from the Crinicle measurement, so there is something wrong with that measurement whether it be unit variation (something wrong with the K702 he measured) or something wrong with the measurement/process/equipment in some way including whether or not the Harman Curve is applicable to his kit (although Crinicle says it's applicable, but I can't really judge on that).Interesting by your logic the reason has to be an issue at Crinacle's end. Not sure how much water that conclusion holds on the facts available.
Yes, your EDIT does cover some of the points I highlighted. Unit variation, corresponding to me thinking there could have been something wrong with the K702 you measured. I do like the Harman Headphone Curve in all it's glory, so it's not that point that you brought up. In terms of pad wear, that's certainly a thing, but I'm not sure how that would explain that my current EQ for the K702 is great (& accurate sounding in comparison to my room & Harman EQ'd speakers) vs the EQ based on your measurement - I used an Innerfidelity measurement with a Target Curve that has been "calibrated" by Jaakopasanen to make Innerfidelity measurements more accurate (because they are 'wrong' in some ways) - he compared Innerfidelity measurements of a number of headphones to Oratory measurements of the same headphones to see where the differences lie in order to create a "Calibrated" Harman Target Curve that irons out the differences.
Well, the point is I have built up a knowledge / "expertise" / understanding of the topic of headphones / Harman / some of the science around it / and how to EQ to those targets, so when I see an outlier amidst an otherwise good experience of EQ'ing headphones to the Harman Target, then I have to conclude that there is something wrong with the measurement. The simple point is that Harman EQ's I have for my 3 headphones all sound great and are really quite accurate to my room EQ'd & Harman EQ'd JBL 308 speakers, with the exception being the one from the Crinicle measurement, so there is something wrong with that measurement whether it be unit variation (something wrong with the K702 he measured) or something wrong with the measurement/process/equipment in some way including whether or not the Harman Curve is applicable to his kit (although Crinicle says it's applicable, but I can't really judge on that).
lol, and I'm saying you don't really understand this topic based on my experience of your previous interactions on these types of topics in the past.3 (three) headphones. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying your logic doesn't hold water.
lol, and I'm saying you don't really understand this topic based on my experience of your previous interactions on these types of topics in the past.
Similar if not equal findings here for freq response Sundara vs. Ananda vs. Susvara:Yes that would be very interesting. I have my suspicions that all of those have similar performing drivers and the main differentiator of their frequency response is down to their differing pads (swapping pads between them and remeasuring would determine this). For example, here I've overlaid measurements of the Deva (orange curve) and the Sundara (thin green curve):
These are very similar frequency responses, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the Sundara and Deva pads are very similar, both using the same materials on the same surfaces. The only difference being the Deva pad’s slightly oval shaped inner ring that is not perforated like the Sundara’s, which could at least partially explain the minimal differences seen in the frequency responses above. If any of this could be confirmed it would give consumers a potentially cheaper way of achieving a desired frequency response - just buy the cheapest HifiMan planar (the HE4XX) and buy and swap in another model's pads separately to upgrade the sound (if it indeed turns out this would be an upgrade).
How do you EQ the K702 pls?AKG K702, because it's cheap and has excellent soundstage & imaging and to such a degree that it is the only headphone that sounds like speakers rather than headphones to me, with EQ you can turn it into a real beast. I like it better than my HD600 and NAD HP50. K702 is also a popular headphone, so there should be some good interest in the review as well as a lot of value for the creation of EQ's from the measurement, as it is a headphone that has not been measured by Oratory. I think K702 is a real gem once EQ'd, and given my experience with a few headphones I think it would be very hard to beat....it's a poor man's HD800s in my opinion whilst probably starting off with a better stock frequency response than the HD800s is my guess from measurements I've seen of the HD800s.