Best 'hi-fi' audiophile bookshelf type speaker to pull mixing/mastering duties in a studio?

[Frank Dernie]

Which speaker is that @Frank Dernie?

I'm also a big fan of this tweeter (and Scan-Speak tweeters of that era generally).

Goldmund Epilog. It is fitted to the Epilog 1 so is the tweeter for the whole series.
I have almost always liked speakers fitted with this tweeter, often DIY ones.
I chose Epilog 1&2 almost 25 years ago over the B&W Nautilus after auditioning the Epilog 1 against the whole Nautilus (the Epilog 2 hadn't been released yet).

 

[Frank Dernie]

To me different materiels sound differently,

Well if you use them to make a bell, definitely. If you make a thin light shell which has a resonance above the audible range there is no technical explanation justifying this claim for a tweeter diaphragm.
There are many reasons why 2 tweeters may sound different and in the case of properly engineered metal ones they are pistonic in their pass band so nothing about the diaphragm material is influencing the sound they radiate in the audible frequency range.

 

[q3cpma]

If Genelec and Neumann made a monitor with the same specs and measurements it would still sound differently.
There's more to sound than just measurements and specs.

Prove it by showing just one such counter example. Or try to go the theoretical way: sound waves passing through air are an understood physical phenomenon that can be measured in all its dimensions (spatial and temporal). Thus, if we can completely measure sound waves, what else is there?

Honestly, don't go full Dunning-Kruger on us, just admit that you don't know enough about the subject to have an opinion with any substance behind it.

 

[andreasmaaan]

That knee is one part of the equation. Dome material and by that the position of breakup changes the harmonic distortion profile and moves the aberations lower in frequency. HD3 for alu dome tweeter that has break up at 27kHz will show its ugly face down at 9kHz but will be very narrow. Very low Q break up in that soft dome will move HD3 at 5kHz but it will be very wide and rise the distortion to larger chunk of frequency response that we are very sensitive at. I tend to use Bliesma T25D (diamond) and Bliesma T25S (fabric) as an example for what happens. Distortion differences from 3-10kHz are there because of dome material and its behaviour at the end of the spectrum - everything else is the same but that.


https://i.postimg.cc/25hrjqCt/11111.png


https://i.postimg.cc/V6w1JY6k/22222.png

Of course, SS 97000 looks really well engineered so the impact on distortion profile should be lower but not non existent.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the inherent differences between materials and their tendencies to affect a driver's performance in different ways. Yes, metal diaphragms' out-of-band break-up tends to be higher in frequency, sharper, and less well-controlled, and this tends to cause narrow HD peaks at corresponding frequencies within the audio band. And yes, soft dome breakup will tend to result in lower-Q effects lower down in the HD profile.

What I object to (not necessarily in what you're arguing specifically) is the idea that tweeters made of specific materials have specific sounds that are dominant despite or regardless of other factors in the system's design (i.e. the loudspeaker's design).

In terms of a whole loudspeaker's sonic characteristics, differences between the properties of dome materials - so long as the transducers are well-designed and so long as they are utilised effectively by the loudspeaker designer in the system - range from marginal to non-existent in comparison to other factors.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Goldmund Epilog. It is fitted to the Epilog 1 so is the tweeter for the whole series.
I have almost always liked speakers fitted with this tweeter, often DIY ones.
I chose Epilog 1&2 almost 25 years ago over the B&W Nautilus after auditioning the Epilog 1 against the whole Nautilus (the Epilog 2 hadn't been released yet).

The industrial design is beautiful:

You don't have measurements do you?

 

[ezra_s]

for the description, small bookself for recording studio with 10" max size.. wouldn't it be better to use one of those near field active professional speakers? Genelec, Adam, JBL or so?

 

[Frank Dernie]

The industrial design is beautiful:

View attachment 89350

You don't have measurements do you?

That is the Apologue actually, the Epilog replaced it and has now also been replaced by a new Apologue and a new range of DSP active speakers.
I don't have measurements. The Epilogs were the first speakers I heard with metal plate construction.
Goldmund is measurement focused at the design end but uses all the high end marketing it needs to sell in the market. It has, as many others, gone wildly up market now, I wouldn't be able to afford the equivalent model to the Epilog 1&2 in their range today even if I was still working.
These are not my actual ones but the same

:

 

[thewas]

If Genelec and Neumann made a monitor with the same specs and measurements it would still sound differently.
There's more to sound than just measurements and specs.

I had answered to you why the sound different here.
If they made them with identical directivity, spinoramas and sufficient low distortions they would sound the same as proven here.
You seem to make the same fallacious conclusion most of us did at some an earlier point in the hobby from not fully understood oversimplified observations and assumptions (for example different materials sound different when you hit them to ring or different loudspeakers sound differently), similar to ones which lead to flat-earth believe.
As it was written here a loudspeaker membrane material is ideally used outside from its resonances/eigenmodes only pistonic region so we avoid its "eigensound".

 

[richard12511]

@andreasmaaan
if that was the case there would be no need for expensive and different materiels and all manufacturers would use the same cheap materiel because they will all sound the same.

That's not true, because consumers still think they sound different, and that's all that matters. Even if Diamond doesn't sound any better than beryllium, for example, manufacturers would still use diamond if doing so meant that consumers would pay more for their speaker(because they wrongly believe it sounds better).

 

[Pearljam5000]

Even in the pro audio market? So Focal uses beryllium for no reason in their studio monitors, OK good to know.

 

[q3cpma]

Even in the pro audio market? So Focal uses beryllium for no reason in their studio monitors, OK good to know.

Not "no reason", it's still one of the best tweeter materials, as you can see in this very useful comparison of four tweeters of the same brand: https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/bliesma-t25a-6-t25b-6-t25d-6-t25s-6
Remember to skip the subjective part, as it wasn't done blind and probably after the measurements were taken.

But still, as you can see, the Al-Mg dome costing half what the Be does is almost as good in the distorsion departement (at least in normal tweeter frequencies, > 2 kHz) but with a wider dispersion. The breakup being at 32 kHz, it can safely be ignored.

 

[auraluxstudio]

Ok peeps, now I need advice on a "B" set to my Genelec 8351B pair. I will make is simple for you since it is multiple choice. Which set will be the most "complimentary" to the Genelec's?

Choices are:

1. Neumann KH 310
2. Neumann KH 120
3. Dynaudio Core 47
4. Focal Solo6 Be
5. Focal Twin6 Be

Of course I am open to other options, but these are the ones that will fit the best in my space next to the Genelec's.

Thanks!

 

[andreasmaaan]

Ok peeps, now I need advice on a "B" set to my Genelec 8351B pair. I will make is simple for you since it is multiple choice. Which set will be the most "complimentary" to the Genelec's?

Choices are:

1. Neumann KH 310
2. Neumann KH 120
3. Dynaudio Core 47
4. Focal Solo6 Be
5. Focal Twin6 Be

Of course I am open to other options, but these are the ones that will fit the best in my space next to the Genelec's.

Thanks!

Are you looking for something that will sound different to the 8351? If so, in what way?

 

[auraluxstudio]

Are you looking for something that will sound different to the 8351? If so, in what way?

Different yes, but it's hard to say how. Just something that would be a good complimentary "B" pair to switch to when mixing and mastering.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Different yes, but it's hard to say how. Just something that would be a good complimentary "B" pair to switch to when mixing and mastering.

I'd say the Neumann's will sound most similar to the Genelecs. Similar controlled directivity and overall neutrality. Both those Focals will sound quite different, as they will have significantly wider dispersion, especially in the lower-mid treble.

Personally I'd avoid the Twin6 - the driver layout is unnecessarily compromised. Actually, the Solo6 was measured by Sound&Recording:

You can actually see how much wider dispersion they are in the treble there. Definitely not super accurate and certainly not controlled-directivity, but if you're looking for something to give you an alternative window onto the mix that is probably more similar to a lot of conventional home audio speakers than the 8351, they will be that And they appear to play very clean for a speaker their size.

 

[auraluxstudio]

I'd say the Neumann's will sound most similar to the Genelecs. Similar controlled directivity and overall neutrality. Both those Focals will sound quite different, as they will have significantly wider dispersion, especially in the lower-mid treble.

Personally I'd avoid the Twin6 - the driver layout is unnecessarily compromised. Actually, the Solo6 was measured by Sound&Recording:

View attachment 89407

View attachment 89408

You can actually see how much wider dispersion they are in the treble there. Definitely not super accurate and certainly not controlled-directivity, but if you're looking for something to give you an alternative window onto the mix that is probably more similar to a lot of conventional home audio speakers than the 8351, they will be that And they appear to play very clean for a speaker their size.

What about Dynaudio? They don’t seem to get much love.

 

[andreasmaaan]

What about Dynaudio? They don’t seem to get much love.

Huh! I didn't notice them in your post.

Will also be wider directivity in the low-mid treble than Genelec/Neumann. If they're done right, they will be more neutral than the Focals (because the directivity of the small midrange will likely beam less at the XO point to the tweeter). Can't find measurements of them though, so hard to say.

 

[auraluxstudio]

Huh! I didn't notice them in your post.

Will also be wider directivity in the low-mid treble than Genelec/Neumann. If they're done right, they will be more neutral than the Focals (because the directivity of the small midrange will likely beam less at the XO point to the tweeter). Can't find measurements of them though, so hard to say.

You have made excellent points about what will be "different", but what would be your advice on what would be a "better" speaker even if it is similar to the Genelec's?

 

[andreasmaaan]

You have made excellent points about what will be "different", but what would be your advice on what would be a "better" speaker even if it is similar to the Genelec's?

Yeh, that's because I don't believe any of those will be close to a better speaker than the 8531

 

[richard12511]

Even in the pro audio market? So Focal uses beryllium for no reason in their studio monitors, OK good to know.

Beryllium is one of the best tweeter materials, so it's not for "no reason".

Also, there's snake oil in the pro industry, too(just less of it). They're not immune to marketing.