"Home Theater" Speakers

[mitchco]

I'm wondering if there's any science/objectivist favorites for good price/performance home theater oriented speakers. Of course, a full set of excellent monitors like Genelecs/Neumanns would probably be 'best', but also would get extremely expensive for multichannel.

A few passive brands I've seen mentioned often (and seem much enjoyed by their owners) are JTR and PSA... but I can't actually find any measurements on them.

However, I've been wondering -- if often the main focus of multichannel home theater speakers is high dynamic range / SPL capability and somewhat more narrow dispersion (for pinpoint multichannel imaging), why aren't professional PA speakers an obvious contender as well?

For example, is there anything that would make the JBL SRX835P or JBL SRX815P unsuitable for indoor home theater use? It's actually quite a bit less expensive than e.g. JTR passive speakers, and the JBL's are active. Perhaps the sound quality would not be on par? But it's really hard to really know because of the lack of measurements.

I am a huge fan of HT speakers. There is no reason why a pro or cinema speaker would not work well in a home environment. I have huge fugly industrial cinema speakers that I use for stereo listening along with HT. The JBL 4722's have excellent output to 40 Hz and a pair of Rythmik F18's take over from there. It is a triamped system with about 3 kWatts of power between the 4 x 15" woofers and double 18" subs from 630 Hz on down. Playing the Sony intro to Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse sounds and feels like the room is going to implode at reference level without any of the speakers breaking a sweat. A lot of fun!

While pro and cinema speakers tend to have narrower directivity, it is not as narrow as people make it out to be. While not perfect, I recorded with binaural mics in my ears my narrow direcitivty 4722's and compared to KEF LS50's, eq'd the same with subs: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...ker-comparison-with-binaural-recordings-r768/
You can listen to the recordings to hear the difference in directivity between the two. It is not a great as one thinks...

The only issue I have the with the JBL SRX835P and JBL SRX815P is the 2432h 3" vc compression driver. Those came with my JBL 4722's and they did not measure very well - high distortion. Based on this long thread at AVSForum, one member bought several JBL compression drivers and measured and listened each one on 4722's. The 4" JBL 2453h-SL aquaplased large format compression driver measure and sound a lot better and what I currently have in my system. Some old pics: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/of...woofer-thread.1214550/page-1834#post-57390652

Have fun!

 

[echopraxia]

On the topic of home theater and subwoofers now... I’m a little confused by some earlier posts claiming that the SRX subs don’t reach low enough for home theater. I’m confused because I don’t ever really recall most theaters I’ve been to having much audible content below 30hz, if that. Maybe I’ve been to the wrong theaters? (I do appreciate the full range down to 20hz for music, but that’s not the focus here for the moment.)

I’m tempted to go with the SRX835P for home theater speakers, but if so it would also be ideal to go with their subs with built in DSP as well. But, they do not seem likely that they’d do well if pushed much below 30hz at high output.

So the question is: Do ”real” theater subwoofers roll off below 35hz, or have I been going to the wrong theaters and there is significant content 20-35hz in movies?

 

[echopraxia]

The biggest pro cinema subwoofer by JBL I can find is this, and it’s frequency response specs are similar to the SRX subs (in that it does not extend below 35hz)!

https://jblpro.com/en-US/products/4281f

So is all this talk about “your subwoofer absolutely must reach flat down to 10hz for home theater, or you are missing out!” just a myth?

 

[Chromatischism]

So is all this talk about “your subwoofer absolutely must reach flat down to 10hz for home theater, or you are missing out!” just a myth?

No, because home theater is different than movie theater.

 

[echopraxia]

No, because home theater is different than movie theater.

So 99% of people have been experiencing movie sound effects completely wrong all this time, since they go to professional movie theaters whose subwoofers reach 30hz, instead of having a home theater system with subwoofers reaching down to 10hz?

I’m skeptical. How is a high end movie theater (where top movies open) not considered a good reference point (at least) for how movies are meant to be experienced?

I have subs that reach down to 10hz and I never found it particularly impressive for movies, vs a movie theater‘s much more powerful bass punch 30hz+. Of course the higher frequencies in movie theaters aren’t usually very good vs home speakers, but that’s not too surprising.

I do appreciate the really deep frequencies for music, though.

 

[Chromatischism]

Not sure I can say it's "wrong", but it's "not ideal".

LFE is significantly more powerful at home due to both the smaller space and the proliferation of low-tuned subwoofers with good output. The better movie soundtracks have lots of output below 30 Hz that you won't hear much of in the theater.

 

[echopraxia]

Not sure I can say it's "wrong", but it's "not ideal".

LFE is significantly more powerful at home due to both the smaller space and the proliferation of low-tuned subwoofers with good output. The better movie soundtracks have lots of output below 30 Hz that you won't hear much of in the theater.

Do you have any examples of recent non-obscure movies I can try? I’d like to check them out and see how they sound with different fake roll offs with my subs, to see what the real difference is.

The reason I’m skeptical is, I’m trying to imagine what it means for even those who produce these movies. Do they really spend time tuning the sound below frequencies where they surely must know that 99.9% of people (including cinema-philes, movie critics, producers, etc.) will never even hear? It seems a very foolish use their time. I‘m just skeptical then that many movies would be putting so much precious time and effort on the sound effects just to cater to 0.1% or whatever of their audience with powerful home theater setups tuned to extend so low.

 

[echopraxia]

Ah, I think my hypothesis is just wrong... there are cinema subwoofers extending down close to 20hz. I suppose most theaters (other than really high end ones) perhaps just don’t use them, hence my memory of most movie theaters is that they don’t contain much really deep content.

https://jblpro.com/en-US/products/5628
https://jblpro.com/en-US/products/4642a

P.S. It is interesting the JBL 5628 seems to outperform (in terms of SPL) just about anything else on data-bass.com within the audible range (above 20hz), and costs “just“ $3k unlike most high power audiophile subs.

 

[sigbergaudio]

There's a good discussion on home theater vs cinema here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...targeting-sub-20hz-response.15951/post-512216

 

[Chromatischism]

Ah, I think my hypothesis is just wrong... there are cinema subwoofers extending down close to 20hz. I suppose most theaters (other than really high end ones) perhaps just don’t use them, hence my memory of most movie theaters is that they don’t contain much really deep content.

https://jblpro.com/en-US/products/5628
https://jblpro.com/en-US/products/4642a

P.S. It is interesting the JBL 5628 seems to outperform (in terms of SPL) just about anything else on data-bass.com within the audible range (above 20hz), and costs “just“ $3k unlike most high power audiophile subs.

Not bad, but still only -10 dB at 18 Hz. I think home users could trade more output for extension.

 

[mitchco]

Not bad, but still only -10 dB at 18 Hz. I think home users could trade more output for extension.

That's the trick... My subs measure down to 6 Hz in my room and literally shake the foundation of the house as one can see and feel the single digit cycles coming off the subs. The Rythmik F18 is not an efficient sub compared to the F18V for example. But in my room, they are used for extension below 40 Hz, and with 1800 watts, more than enough for my size room. Love that extension. It is the fridge sized double 15" cabs with the short throw, stiff cone, high efficiency woofers that provide the slam and kick. With all drivers time aligned, so all direct sound arrives at ones ears at the same time, coupled with high efficiency drivers = the most dynamic transient impact. I know there are other approaches, but to my ears, this sounds the best and technically the most accurate response.

 

[echopraxia]

So the bottom line question is: What kind of subwoofers would be able to keep up with any home theater content played at reference level in an e.g. 3000 cu.ft. room with concrete floor?

If I get JBL SRX835P’s for home theater LCR, they won’t even break a sweat pushing reference level. So now I’m curious what subs if any fit the ”reference level” caliber of SPL capability with extension down as low as some of you say is necessary.

For example, considering Rythmik: Would my pair of F18’s be enough? A pair of FV18’s? Or are two FV25HP necessary? Two JTR Captivator 4000ULF’s with wiring to pump 10 kilowatts into the room?? When it is “enough” subsonic coverage?

Also... when we are talking about such deep subsonic power literally shaking the house... is this really desired? Does earthquake insurance cover damage this might do? But in seriousness, are there risks to the house?

 

[echopraxia]

According to this, a reference level system must be capable of 115dB LFE peaks
at the listening position, but with bass management directing bass from other channels to the subwoofer, 120dB subwoofer capability at listening position is a more realistic requirement.

To achieve this down to 20hz would require more than two Rythmik FV25s, or more than a single JTR Captivator 4000ULF. However these would come close enough it seems that with room gain would probably be sufficient for any reference level content down to 20hz.

Now if we want to push 15hz or 10hz, it just gets crazier and crazier. You pretty much have to keep doubling the number of subs, the deeper you go. Quite a lot of expense, for very diminishing returns IMO,

Even reaching 120db 20hz seems to be far from a cost effective goal, when it’s so much easier and less expensive to aim for reference level at 30hz.

 

[Snoochers]

Why are the SVS Ultra towers not in consideration for quality HT speakers? Great spinorama, great price, and ugly enough to do the job. Amir didn't like them but who knows

 

[Chromatischism]

Two FV18's are good for around 116 dB, so that's a good reference point.

 

[echopraxia]

Two FV18's are good for around 116 dB, so that's a good reference point.

I have one F18 (sold the other as I plan to upgrade). My only worry if I were to go with FV18s is if I run into the same situation later where I could have instead bought the even higher power option. But if I consider the FV25HP, for not much more weight I should ado consider the JTR Captivatir 4000ULF which is twice again as powerful (SPL @ 20hz) but less than twice as expensive.

 

[echopraxia]

Why are the SVS Ultra towers not in consideration for quality HT speakers? Great spinorama, great price, and ugly enough to do the job. Amir didn't like them but who knows

The review mentions they sound bright, which is concerning. It’s weird it doesn’t show up in frequency response, but the waterfall plot does show severe “ringing” at a number of treble frequencies. Perhaps waterfall plots are useful after all?

But also, they’re not likely in the same league as the JBL SRX835P’s in terms of SPL, since the JBL is an active 3-way with 15” woofer capable or pushing 137db. This provides immense headroom to EQ. The SVS in contrast is a passive speaker with no max SPL specification (as is the case for most passives unfortunately), so I can’t know how far it’s woofers can be pushed — but am quite certainly it’s less than the JBL simply due to woofer area and bass extension tuning differences.

So as a passive speaker, pushing the SVS limits is a bit less comfortable/safe. It’s probably a great choice for many people though, but I am just a fan of active speakers with lots of headroom — and the SRX835P achieves this for a similar price (if you find a dealer that will discount). It’s nice knowing the JBL SRX835P will pretty much never reach its limits or start to distort at any frequency 40hz+ when playing reference level content in a home theater, even with a strong bass boost. The peace of mind is nice. And I’ve heard them, and know they sound excellent even for music.

 

[FrantzM]

So the bottom line question is: What kind of subwoofers would be able to keep up with any home theater content played at reference level in an e.g. 3000 cu.ft. room with concrete floor?

If I get JBL SRX835P’s for home theater LCR, they won’t even break a sweat pushing reference level. So now I’m curious what subs if any fit the ”reference level” caliber of SPL capability with extension down as low as some of you say is necessary.

For example, considering Rythmik: Would my pair of F18’s be enough? A pair of FV18’s? Or are two FV25HP necessary? Or are we talking dual GP25HP for that (apparently essential) subsonic reproduction?

Also... when we are talking about such deep subsonic power literally shaking the house... is this really desired? Does earthquake insurance cover damage this might do? But in seriousness, are there risks to the house?

Hi

This is one of the many interesting discussions going on ASR...

There are some practical point of views that need to be addressed here. A PA sub, needs to play in a room, much larger than a typical HT. In such venues, some distortion in the bass would be tolerated. I hasten to qualify this: 10% THD @ 20 Hz, 100 dB SPL is considered .. OK... so .. I can see the JBL Series 800 subwoofers as borderline adequate for Home use but .. At the SPL level they will be operating in a HT room, would some of the issues, for exemple , port shuffling be noticed? I mean, with a sub s capable of 130 dB at 40 Hz in a room, even with a 24 dB/octave cut-off, it will still be producing 106 dB at 1 meter and this before, any room...er ... boost . All that is speculation .
I have come to understand that for a sub headroom and low THD are extremely important. The SRX sub has the headroom , perhaps not the THD ... but without measurements... We won't know. I looked at the CEA measurements of the Rythmik F18 and I would like to know if it remains superior to the SRX... for which we don't have similar measurements, in part , because we audiophiles would never consider it for our purposes. It may well be that the Rythmik remains superior for home use but, at this point, I, (We?) don't know.

Same with the mains, the SX835P. It may well be that they distort at some level, but, at what level? If it is at 120 dB SPL at 1 meters, It may not matter to me, I can only take 105 dB, for less than 10 seconds at the listening position... At the level I play thus, the SRX 835P could just be idling with electronics-like distortion ...
This to me is the value of the tests conducted by Amir and others for speakers. Granted measuring a 90 lbs beast such as the 835P is not a given but, that will let us know. For now, I am satisfied by 8 inch as the mid/woofer... I am not so sure , I would be, with a 5 inch, regardless of the linearity of its FR.. In my opinion, perhaps heavily biased by exposure and prior experience with inadequate audiophile-style.

@mitcho
I was under the impression, that you used the 4722 for a while with the original compression drivers? Care to correct me? If yes for how long? That could be a path to be taken for the 835P as the 4722 are violently ugly, IMO.

And there could be other gems hidden in the PA world treasure chest...

 

[HooStat]

Even reaching 120db 20hz seems to be far from a cost effective goal, when it’s so much easier and less expensive to aim for reference level at 30hz.

The issue is that you are planning for 115-120 dB peaks, which, by definition are transient. And this is at "reference level". It just forces the law of diminishing returns to attack with vengeance. Perhaps a more realistic goal? Say 105-110 db peak? Surely that is well-beyond any realistic need? And, of course, the subs will probably push the 115 dB peak, just with more distortion than desired. But again, it is transient.

Or you could just work backwards. Determine which sub(s) you want, and just make sure they give you a reasonable response. Perhaps 3 realistically-specified subs for smoother bass? I would guess that smoother response is more important than any 115 db transient peak.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

 

[echopraxia]

Same with the mains, the SX835P. It may well be that they distort but, at what level? If it is at 110 dB SPL at 3 meters, It may not matter to me, I can only take 105 dB, for less than 10 seconds at the listening position... At the level I play thus, the SRX 835P could just be idling with electronics-like distortion ...
This to me is the value of the tests conducted by Amir and others for speakers. Granted measuring a 90 lbs beast such as the 835P is not a given but, that will let us know. For now, I am satisfied by 8 inch as the mid/woofer... I am not so sure , I would be, with a 5 inch, regardless of the linearity of its FR.. In my opinion, perhaps heavily biased by exposure and prior experience with inadequate audiophile-style.

I wish I saved my REW measurements, but I remember doing tone sweeps at 90db, 95db, 100db, 105db after using the on-board EQ to boost bass response to be flat down to 25hz (then fall off abruptly below). I just remember distortion was quite low, and showed no signs of increasing nonlinearly vs the SPL increase. In contrast, most towers start to distort pretty quickly above 95db, and compress soon after. IIRC there was zero signs of distortion, compression, or any kind of stress otherwise at 105db, but I stopped there.

Anyways, after returning my rental, I did place an order for a pair of SRX835P’s... so there will be the opportunity for me to measure this again later.