"Home Theater" Speakers

[echopraxia]

I'm wondering if there's any science/objectivist favorites for good price/performance home theater oriented speakers. Of course, a full set of excellent monitors like Genelecs/Neumanns would probably be 'best', but also would get extremely expensive for multichannel.

A few passive brands I've seen mentioned often (and seem much enjoyed by their owners) are JTR and PSA... but I can't actually find any measurements on them.

However, I've been wondering -- if often the main focus of multichannel home theater speakers is high dynamic range / SPL capability and somewhat more narrow dispersion (for pinpoint multichannel imaging), why aren't professional PA speakers an obvious contender as well?

For example, is there anything that would make the JBL SRX835P or JBL SRX815P unsuitable for indoor home theater use? It's actually quite a bit less expensive than e.g. JTR passive speakers, and the JBL's are active. Perhaps the sound quality would not be on par? But it's really hard to really know because of the lack of measurements.

 

[Chromatischism]

At that price, you could just use JBL 705P/708P's, for which I believe we do have measurements.

 

[echopraxia]

At that price, you could just use JBL 705P/708P's, for which I believe we do have measurements.

The 705P is a tiny speaker, and are significantly SPL limited vs home theater demands. I would want home theater speakers to be able to achieve reference level SPL peaks in a large room without clipping or limiting -- which is not possible from the 705P. The 708P might be borderline capable of this, but it's also quite expensive and IMO overpriced given the endless reliability issues (many many reports of them dying, and their warranty replacements dying, etc.)

Note that I'm referring mostly to bass/midbass. I don't really have concerns that just about any tweeter can get loud enough. Smaller speakers almost always run into limits in large rooms when it comes to bass prior to the subwoofer crossover.

 

[MZKM]

Not everyone has surround preouts, and measurements are mostly unknown. Also, most people don’t have a dedicated home theater, so you do have to look at the things.

 

[Chromatischism]

The 705P is a tiny speaker, and are significantly SPL limited vs home theater demands. I would want home theater speakers to be able to achieve reference level SPL peaks in a large room without clipping or limiting -- which is not possible from the 705P. The 708P might be borderline capable of this, but it's also quite expensive and IMO overpriced given the endless reliability issues (many many reports of them dying, and their warranty replacements dying, etc.)

Note that I'm referring mostly to bass/midbass. I don't really have concerns that just about any tweeter can get loud enough. Smaller speakers almost always run into limits in large rooms when it comes to bass prior to the subwoofer crossover.

Reference level is not used in the home unless an individual wants to invite hearing damage. I think the 705P would work fine for surround duty.

 

[echopraxia]

Reference level is not used in the home unless an individual wants to invite hearing damage. I think the 705P would work fine for surround duty.

Reference level bass/midbass peaks (e.g. explosions etc) is extremely unlikely to cause any hearing damage. Treble is a different story, but most tweeters of any size speaker will go more than loud enough. So my only concern here is almost entirely
about woofer size.

705P may be fine for surround, but I’m curious what kind of options there are for the front and center. 708P would be appealing if not for its horrible reliability record and extremely inflated MSRP. I’d much rather buy an 8” Genelec 8050 for less cost, and at least in that case reliability and cheap plastic case build quality issues won’t be a concern.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

If you look around, you can find many references to pa speakers used in home-theater. And the users seem quite happy with the sound. Drawbacks are visual appearance and many of them are not expensive enough.

There are also higher-end pa systems that indeed are expensive enough, and they have a very good reputation for sound quality.

A small toy-speaker has no place in a theater where you want realistic sound levels. But many do not need or want to play loud, and then requirements are very different. Still, a horn-speaker system will present a much better sound also at lower volumes.

 

[Chromatischism]

Reference level bass/midbass peaks (e.g. explosions etc) is extremely unlikely to cause any hearing damage. Treble is a different story, but most tweeters of any size speaker will go more than loud enough. So my only concern here is almost entirely
about woofer size.

705P may be fine for surround, but I’m curious what kind of options there are for the front and center. 708P would be appealing if not for its horrible reliability record and extremely inflated MSRP. I’d much rather buy an 8” Genelec 8050 for less cost, and at least in that case reliability and cheap plastic case build quality issues won’t be a concern.

Then JBL 708i (passive).

 

[Chromatischism]

If you look around, you can find many references to pa speakers used in home-theater. And the users seem quite happy with the sound. Drawbacks are visual appearance and many of them are not expensive enough.

There are also higher-end pa systems that indeed are expensive enough, and they have a very good reputation for sound quality.

A small toy-speaker has no place in a theater where you want realistic sound levels. But many do not need or want to play loud, and then requirements are very different. Still, a horn-speaker system will present a much better sound also at lower volumes.

I'm not sure most PA speakers have had their off-axis sound quality optimised. Usually that's not a design priority when the use case doesn't have close walls. That would make them only ideal if your room is completely treated to absorb everything.

Measurements would be greatly needed, as echopraxia states.

 

[echopraxia]

Still, a horn-speaker system will present a much better sound also at lower volumes.

Better than what? If this were true then all audiophile speakers would use horns

I have no doubt if the SPL specs from these PA speakers, but the main risk would be the sound quality. As @Chromatischism mentioned, if these are optimized for outdoor use then it’s possible they’ll have fatal off axis flaws in terms of indoor use, that won’t show up as a major problem outdoors.

I guess the only answer here is simply that we don’t know without measurements, or without listening to them set up in a room.

 

[Duke]

I'm not sure most PA speakers have had their off-axis sound quality optimised. Usually that's not a design priority when the use case doesn't have close walls.

To a reasonable first approximation pattern control is pattern control, whether the goal is to avoid early sidewall interaction or to most efficiently cover an audience. I make prosound speakers (high-end bass guitar cabs) and the principle are the same.

But big PA mains which rely on diffraction horns for pattern control may not sound as good as home audio speakers or studio monitors. If there are sharp edges or abrupt angles in the horn, or around the mouth, diffraction (and therefore harshness at high SPL's) may be an issue.

One reasons why you are more likely to find diffraction horns in PA mains than in home audio or studio monitors has to do with power handling. Most PA mains use large-format compression drivers with 3" or 4" voice coils and 2" exits, for the sake of power handling. Then in order to get good high frequency coverage, diffraction is used to widen the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane at high frequencies to match the horn's coverage pattern across the rest of the spectrum.

On the other hand home audio and studio monitors usually do not have the same power handling requirements, so they tend to use 1" throat compression drivers having voice coils of perhaps 1.5" to 1.75" diameter, which are more likely to have good high frequency coverage without the use of diffraction, or with only "gentle" diffraction.

 

[echopraxia]

Thinking a bit more about this, it seems like if anything, horizontal and vertical dispersion smoothness matters just as much for home theater as music — especially if one has a wide couch / seating area horizontally and forward/backward, relative to the size of the room.

In that sense, to take a complete opposite direction/perspective on this, I wonder why coaxials aren’t more popular for home theater.

One thing I found really exceptional about my coaxial Genelec’s when trying them in my TV/movie room is how amazingly consistent the sound is, no matter where I sit. They’re just quite pricey and overkill in terms of sound quality if used primarily for home theater.

 

[maverickronin]

Paging @richard12511 and his JBL Eons.

IIRC he said they hissed a ton.

 

[Duke]

In that sense, to take a complete opposite direction/perspective on this, I wonder why coaxials aren’t more popular for home theater.

Mark Seaton makes excellent high-output speakers which use a coaxial for mids and highs, and two woofers for the lows, in an "MCM" configuration that works both vertically and horizontally. This way the coaxial midrange cone (which doubles as the "horn" for the compression driver) isn't subjected to bass excursions, which can degrade clarity when a coaxial is used full-range.

 

[bigguyca]

Mark Seaton makes excellent high-output speakers which use a coaxial for mids and highs, and two woofers for the lows, in an "MCM" configuration that works both vertically and horizontally.

Have Mark Seaton's MTM speakers been measured by an objective party or are you speaking purely subjectively?

 

[Duke]

Have Mark Seaton's MTM speakers been measured by an objective party or are you speaking purely subjectively?

I am speaking as a competitor who has some understanding of the tradeoffs involved in loudspeaker design, and an appreciation for a job well done.

 

[Zedly]

A few passive brands I've seen mentioned often (and seem much enjoyed by their owners) are JTR and PSA... but I can't actually find any measurements on them.

Matthew Poes measured and reviewed JTR's Noesis 212RT at https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/jtr-noesis-212rt-review-and-measurements.6779/ They seem very impressive.

 

[echopraxia]

I am speaking as a competitor who has some understanding of the tradeoffs involved in loudspeaker design, and an appreciation for a job well done.

I guess the question is — how do we know it’s a job well done?

As a buyer, I am always very disappointed and turned away from a speaker brand when they do not publish measurements in some form (or arrange 3rd party measurements).

The logic behind this is pretty simple: When a speaker is sold for which no measurements are publicly available, it implies one of two things — either (1) the designer/manufacturer does not have any measurements and therefore did not use any measurements during the design process (very bad), or (2) the designer/manufacturer has some measurements validating the design, but does not want them to be known to prospective buyers (also a bad sign).

In either case, the implications are not good. Note that I’m not saying measurements must be posted on the front page of advertising material; merely that they exist and are obtainable to prospective buyers who want to see them.

Therefore, I cannot justify ever again buying an expensive speaker that has no measurements.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

Better than what? If this were true then all audiophile speakers would use horns

I have no doubt if the SPL specs from these PA speakers, but the main risk would be the sound quality. As @Chromatischism mentioned, if these are optimized for outdoor use then it’s possible they’ll have fatal off axis flaws in terms of indoor use, that won’t show up as a major problem outdoors.

I guess the only answer here is simply that we don’t know without measurements, or without listening to them set up in a room.

The pa speakers listed in the 1. post look a bit too similar to what the typical entertainer in the local pub uses, the kind that always sound horribly bad. But then I see the price - this is not the typical low-budget offering, so those may be different. But you don't need to choose those, you can choose something designed for the intended purpose - JTR has been mentioned.

There is a significant difference in sound character as well as output capacity between a typical hifi speaker with dome tweeter to something that has sufficient output capacity and radiation pattern control. A small speaker may seem sufficient when calculating the numbers on paper, but in reality they will never come close. There is a huge difference in realism and impact, across the whole frequency range. You need powerful lower midrange, to get that physical impact from transients like gunshots, and sound effects with very transient high frequency energy need high capacity even av higher frequencies.

To understand what this means, you need to experience the difference for yourself. A capable theater system can have a very addictive, realistic and powerful sound experience, and listening at 0dB is not too loud.

 

[Snoochers]

Why not a good passive speaker like the HDI-1600/3800 or KEF R3/R5 for the LCR and then any decent in-wall speaker? Surrounds don't matter that much and they can be sleek and cheap. Revel has good in-walls for example.