Is "Live" Sound the Gold Standard for Audio? Why? Why Not?

[Robin L]

Much of recorded music isn't even reproducible as a live event, so how can "live sound" be the gold standard.

Thank you Sgt. Pepper.

 

[Beershaun]

 

[North_Sky]

It depends; in an outside stadium, amplified? ...During a thunderstorm?

...In your living room, unamplified?

...Sitting in the last row of a concert hall, to the extreme right or left? ... Amplified and/or unamplified. ...In the balcony above, to the right.

 

[MattHooper]

I love live music, I bet you do too. Even though I would like my home system to replicate that experience, my system seems to be missing something. So here go some questions for you:

Part 1: Is that "Live" sound a key reference against which an ambitious system should be judged?
Part 2: How is an actual "Live" performance different, in a technical sense, from what most home systems can reproduce?
Part 3: Is "Live" sound even worth chasing? What happens when the dog catches the car?

I'm not sure anyone can pronounce what the goal "should be" for our audio systems. But for me...

I do reference the sound of live, unamplified voices and instruments as a sort of "north star" by which to evaluate the sound of what I'm hearing.
Something that points in the right direction, but which you never actually reach.

I do this because live un-amplified sound (and often amplified sound) is to me usually leagues better than reproduced sound. And because I find that some sound systems get a bit closer to reminding me of the real thing than others, and I enjoy those systems more than ones that sound consistently "wrong."

But that said, if I focus too much on the comparison, and demand too much, it would only result in disappointment. The reproduction doesn't really sound like the real thing in every way, and in some ways it hugely departs. (A drum set playing in my room each night would blow my ears out).

So in terms of the realism part, I use an analogy to watching movies on my projector. Some movies strive for realism, others do not. For those that strive more for realism, certain reference points to real life increase the realism - the acting being natural, the script sounding natural, the lighting not exaggerated, the sound, the locations, and technically things like skin tones being accurate enough, all of those things help the illusion of reality. They help you forget the ways in which the experience fundamentally departs from the real thing (e.g. the big flat image among other things). Since no movie experience is truly realistic, but consists of illusion that references just enough reality to aid "belief," a better word that captures the experience is "believability." A movie can't be "real," but it can be "believable."

The same goes for my sound system. I was listening to one of my favorite soundtracks - orchestral - a few nights ago, with my eyes closed head back on my sofa. My speakers are set up wide apart and fairly close, for an enveloping sound. The speakers "disappear." While there wasn't a true tonal richness of a real orchestra, there was a general "rightness" enough to let me luxuriate in the sound, and it was actually surprisingly easy to sink in to the illusion of listening to a real orchestra. Like watching a movie, if I stop and think about it compared to the real thing, it will instantly be revealed as falling well short. But with the right bag of tricks tugging the right bits of my brain, and my imagination aiding, the believably was quite rewarding.

And then there is all the music that I listen to that is not trying to sound "real" in any sense. I just want that stuff to sound great, and compelling to listen to. Fortunately, the features that make acoustic instruments sound more convincing also work for the crazy electronica I like to listen to.
Just like an oboe can sound RIGHT THERE between the speakers sometimes, a crazy synth line can appear RIGHT THERE, like a column of dense, writhing reach-out-and-grab-it texture. I often liken listening to electronic music with speakers in my room that do tight, dense imaging, to having aliens show up and visit me in my room. It never ceases to fascinate me.

 

[Alexanderc]

I love reading all the responses to this question. It’s eye opening (ear opening?) to see the variety of replies. Once not so long ago I would have said, “yes, absolutely, live music is the gold standard and all recordings should be judged accordingly,” but now I’m not convinced. Two brief vignettes (doing my best to ignore the social aspects in the name of science ):
1) Have you ever heard an electric guitar or electric bass being played without being plugged in? Sounds like nothing. If it’s amplified though, that’s just listening to it through a speaker. Maybe not even a decent speaker. Just like at home.
2) I love live opera. When I’m at the opera time flies and I don’t even realize 3 hours have passed. When I listen to recordings of opera or watch it on TV, I feel like it will never end. It’s more like an exercise in concentration (can I really pay attention for 3 hours without falling asleep?). I have no idea why this is, but no recording seems to be able to capture whatever it is that is different in live opera.

So my answer to the question about live performance as the reference: I think it can be, but I don’t know if it should be. Seems like a moving target. Whoever made the comparison earlier in the thread between movies and theater is a genius and I’m going to give that some serious thought.

 

[Chrispy]

Sure, I love live music....altho not as much these days as in the past due to availability and being nice to my old ears. Lots of different kinds of live music, too, especially as far as what might be doable in a home.

1/ Maybe but I'm not all that ambitious either.
2/ Dynamic range, spl come to mind quickly.
3/ Maybe small group/venue acoustic music....

 

[MattHooper]

2) I love live opera. When I’m at the opera time flies and I don’t even realize 3 hours have passed. When I listen to recordings of opera or watch it on TV, I feel like it will never end. It’s more like an exercise in concentration (can I really pay attention for 3 hours without falling asleep?). I have no idea why this is, but no recording seems to be able to capture whatever it is that is different in live opera.

I have a similar experience with classical music. I used to attend the symphony quite often and, really, it mattered little what was playing. I was always enthralled. But listening on a stereo system I'm much more selective - l swoon over some classical, but much of the stuff I would enjoy live has me straining to maintain interest on a stereo system.

 

[b1daly]

Very interesting. I may be an outlier. For me, Blues live is almost a different genre than Blues recorded. Live Reggae, again, a very different experience than recorded. I know others on ASR have commented how it's impossible to properly record a classical piano, no matter how much it has been attempted and how enjoyable are the results. Just not the same.

Part of the issue is how different the environment is in the studio from live performance. The musicians playing is affected by the onstage sound, visual proximity, audience feedback, and critically in live performance the need to not worry as much about ‘making mistakes’ psychologically allows for more expressive performanc.

 

[b1daly]

Live music is typically louder than most playback experiences. For a recording to capture and transmit that ’energy’ without having to generate a comparable amount of real sound energy requires a lot of trickery by the producers.

Cranking your system to similar SPL as a live performance will give more ‘realism.’

 

[North_Sky]

Don't follow the general direction follow the right direction.

 

[Kouioui]

I've heard lot's of audio systems that were far better-sounding than the average live show. Also, the best sounding live show I've seen was probably just a couple years ago - Joe Jackson here at a local venue. It sounded bloody fantastic...largely I think because the spl was kept fairly low. I was struck by how much it sounded like a good home system! lol

Funny you should mention Joe Jackson as his 1984 mastered direct-to-digital live recording Body and Soul is one of the finest recorded examples of a live rock band playing in a superb acoustical environment I know of. Another would be Steely Dan's Two Against Nature DVD recorded in 2000 at Sony Studios NYC before a live audience.

I doubt even mitchco's JBL 4722 Goliath cinema speakers setup would be indistinguishable from a live performance of this sort of quality from those artists in his own listening room but may come as close as one could possibly get.

 

[ttimer]

Part 1: Mostly no. There are exceptions, e.g. classical concerts.

Part 2: As you all know, for Rock and Pop the sound quality at a live event is usually worse than at home. Can't even count the number of times i went to see some huge, famous, internationally known band, only to be terribly disappointed by horrible PA systems. Badly balanced, instruments disappearing entirely, screechy, volume turned up so much the system is clipping, the list ist endless. Basically every flaw imaginable has been present at some point. Why do bands and crew care so little about the actual listening experience? Or are their ears so shot that they don't notice?
This is different in a small, more intimate, unamplified setting. But part of what makes these small settings special is the interaction between musicians and audience. That, to me, is a huge part of the experience and can't be reproduced.

Part 3: Mostly no, see part 1. When i want to listen to a live performance, i go to listen to a live performance. Speakers are great for listening to modern productions which don't necessarily exist as a "live" performance.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

2) I love live opera. When I’m at the opera time flies and I don’t even realize 3 hours have passed. When I listen to recordings of opera or watch it on TV, I feel like it will never end. It’s more like an exercise in concentration (can I really pay attention for 3 hours without falling asleep?). I have no idea why this is, but no recording seems to be able to capture whatever it is that is different in live opera.

Well there is a difference. In the Opera, you see living, breathing people in front of you, performing for you.
That feels a lot different to watching a BluRay of an Opera that has been recorded some time in the past.

I still remember hearing a concert from my flute teacher, I was hypnotized by the dancing lights on her flute alone. It was an incredible feeling being there, being graced by talented musicians playing for me in real time. That is an emotional element, playback systems will never capture.

 

[MediumRare]

Part of the issue is how different the environment is in the studio from live performance. The musicians playing is affected by the onstage sound, visual proximity, audience feedback, and critically in live performance the need to not worry as much about ‘making mistakes’ psychologically allows for more expressive performanc.

I think it's more about pressurizing the room with bass (not sure if it's subwoofer content or in the 70 to 120 Hz range) and much higher dynamic range. I'm really trying to get a scientific perspective on this. SPL is certainly part of it. When I crank it up at home I get all sorts of vibrating elements in furniture and windows, so that could be a limiting factor.

 

[raif71]

 

[Beershaun]

I think it's more about pressurizing the room with bass (not sure if it's subwoofer content or in the 70 to 120 Hz range) and much higher dynamic range. I'm really trying to get a scientific perspective on this. SPL is certainly part of it. When I crank it up at home I get all sorts of vibrating elements in furniture and windows, so that could be a limiting factor.

You might look at concert engineering/setup forums and what they design for and calculations they use to get a sense of what makes a good live event from an engineering standpoint.

 

[richard12511]

Live music is typically louder than most playback experiences. For a recording to capture and transmit that ’energy’ without having to generate a comparable amount of real sound energy requires a lot of trickery by the producers.

Cranking your system to similar SPL as a live performance will give more ‘realism.’

I would say most home hifi systems are actually incapable of typical live dynamics, unless you spend quite a bit of money. Other than DIY, what's the least that one would have to spend to get speakers capable of such dynamics? Power Sound Audio is $2k/pair, I think? Perhaps there are even cheaper options?

 

[JoachimStrobel]

Hmm for me, no. Not really.
My main problem with live music would be the volume.

I find playing my own flute stressful, especially in the higher registers. Flute is not even considered a particularly loud instrument.
A Saxophone blows it away (no punchline intended). A grand piano in a small room is painfully loud when played anything above mf.

I seriously doubt I could enjoy much music if everything would sound as if the real instrument was played in my room.

So true. Any reproduction system can only reproduce faithfully what would fit into the room. No big band in a 20m2 room.

 

[Blumlein 88]

So true. Any reproduction system can only reproduce faithfully what would fit into the room. No big band in a 20m2 room.

I don't see this as necessarily being true.

If you can produce the correct soundfield at someone's ears they could hear a much larger space. It might not visually fit in the room, but close your eyes and you could hear a huge space in a small room.

 

[MediumRare]

So true. Any reproduction system can only reproduce faithfully what would fit into the room. No big band in a 20m2 room.

IMO, the only limitation from a room size point of view is deep bass. Theory says you need a dimension of 28.5' to handle a clean half-wave of 20 Hz sound. 18.8' for 30 Hz. So your 20 m2 room is about 15' square, or maybe 10' x 21.5'? If it's the latter you're clean down to 26 Hz. Most likely, you really don't need below 30 Hz, what you need is dynamics and SPL. So.... IMO 20 m2 is plenty big enough for amazing sound. How loud is up to your neighbors or resonances (windows, furniture, door latches).