Anyone see this train wreck in Stereophile?

[Inner Space]

There's definitely a ton of rock recordings where the drums sound way too big. With my speakers being almost 4m apart, I've heard many drums that span the entire space.

4m is realistic for a lot of rock kits. Last gig I saw before lockdown had Mick Fleetwood on drums, on a kit easily 4m wide. But I guess what you're not getting is the stuff left and right of the kit, on a stage probably 35m wide. Hence Matt Hooper's point about miniaturization. Properly scaled to your speaker spacing, the drums should occupy the center half-metre. But they don't. That's partly a failure of recording and mixing technique, but can also be speaker resonances "pulling" the image wider, left and right, at many drum-typical frequencies.

 

[Robin L]

4m is realistic for a lot of rock kits. Last gig I saw before lockdown had Mick Fleetwood on drums, on a kit easily 4m wide. But I guess what you're not getting is the stuff left and right of the kit, on a stage probably 35m wide. Hence Matt Hooper's point about miniaturization. Properly scaled to your speaker spacing, the drums should occupy the center half-metre. But they don't. That's partly a failure of recording and mixing technique, but can also be speaker resonances "pulling" the image wider, left and right, at many drum-typical frequencies.

It's mostly mixing technique. Fact is, reality is the last concern of a producer at a recording. People are used to the sound of close-miked unreality.

 

[Sal1950]

They could stop doing the science and return to the dark ages of publishing just the flowery bullshit. [They can't do this because (thanks to ASR and others) the science cannot be put back in its box].

I wouldn't bet on that, they are feeling the heat IMO.

If you read this months Stereophile, Jim Austin uses the entire Page 1 "As We See It" to rant against speakers designed to measure well.
"I admire Toole's work, but I do not admire conformists who insist, often with insufficient self-examination, that everything be judged by the same narrow criteria. There may be a single best way to roast a chicken, but I'm glad different chefs use different recipes."
"It's especially disheartening when narrow-minded online critics use one aspect of our coverage—our measurements—to attack the other side: our subjective judgments."
https://www.stereophile.com/content/hoisted-your-own-petard

Then back in Dec he used that same column to attack the use of ABX testing and short term comparisons.
"Subjectivist audiophiles have long maintained that long-term listening is necessary to assess the quality and character of an audio component."
He wraps up the writing with this position,
"Accuracy—fidelity—is, for most serious listeners, the benchmark we measure our systems against, whether we measure fidelity by objective or subjective criteria. But other valid criteria exist. Maybe some listeners just want sound that minimizes, or even alleviates, stress, whether through second-harmonic distortion, suppressed response in the presence region (aka BBC dip), natural interaural relationships, or whatever. Maybe some people just want their sound system to sound good."
https://www.stereophile.com/content/slow-listening

Overall what I read between the lines is that they're really starting to feel the heat being written around the web against indefensible positions on subjective sound impressions vs the science of measurement. I believe it's highly possible that after we reach a point that John Atkinson should decide to retire, that the measurement side of their reviews could either disappear completely, or some inventive ways be found to drasticaly reduce any impact it may have on the subjective side of the review..
I hope I'm wrong but, Only time will tell..........................................

 

[richard12511]

4m is realistic for a lot of rock kits. Last gig I saw before lockdown had Mick Fleetwood on drums, on a kit easily 4m wide. But I guess what you're not getting is the stuff left and right of the kit, on a stage probably 35m wide. Hence Matt Hooper's point about miniaturization. Properly scaled to your speaker spacing, the drums should occupy the center half-metre. But they don't. That's partly a failure of recording and mixing technique, but can also be speaker resonances "pulling" the image wider, left and right, at many drum-typical frequencies.

How does that even work? Does have to run back and forth to hit the different drums?

 

[Robin L]

I believe it's highly possible that after we reach a point that John Atkinson should decide to retire, that the measurement side of their reviews could either disappear completely, or some inventive ways be found to drasticaly reduce any impact it may have on the subjective side of the review..
I hope I'm wrong but, Only time will tell..........................................

Just read the review of this speaker, there's your answer.

 

[Robin L]

How does that even work? Does have to run back and forth to hit the different drums?

Long arms.

 

[RayDunzl]

How does that even work? Does have to run back and forth to hit the different drums?

Here's a big kit...

Click and drag the image

I count 21 pedals on the floor

Sound starts at 1:34

 

[MediumRare]

Here's a big kit...

...

I count 21 pedals on the floor

Somebody is compensating, but not Steve Jordan.

 

[Inner Space]

How does that even work? Does have to run back and forth to hit the different drums?

Two kick drums, multiple floor toms, elaborate cymbal arrays, tympanum. Plus Mick is a very tall guy, so yeah, long arms. Personally I prefer what I call a "Ringo kit" - one kick, one shell tom, one floor tom, snare, hi-hat, crash and ride. Look for a guy named Brian Blade - wonderful, on a small basic kit.

 

[Chrispy]

Here's a big kit...

Clock and drag the image

I count 21 pedals on the floor

Sound starts at 1:34

LOL you beat me to it.

 

[richard12511]

Two kick drums, multiple floor toms, elaborate cymbal arrays, tympanum. Plus Mick is a very tall guy, so yeah, long arms. Personally I prefer what I call a "Ringo kit" - one kick, one shell tom, one floor tom, snare, hi-hat, crash and ride. Look for a guy named Brian Blade - wonderful, on a small basic kit.

Maybe I'm missing something, but there's no way arms are that long. Going by typical human proportions, he'd need to be 13ft tall to have arms that long.

 

[richard12511]

Here's a big kit...

Clock and drag the image

I count 21 pedals on the floor

Sound starts at 1:34

Big, but still nowhere near big enough.

 

[Inner Space]

Maybe I'm missing something, but there's no way arms are that long. Going by typical human proportions, he'd need to be 13ft tall to have arms that long.

Well, let's think it through. We ain't talking about Def Leppard here, so let's assume two arms, with a torso between. Say the kit is 13' wide, i.e. 4m. Say the L & R extremities are cymbals. He has to reach the meat of the metal with a stick. So the final, say, 3' on each side can be beyond the reach of his hands. Which gives him 7' in the center to deal with. I'm 6'4" with a 7' wingspan. Fleetwood is much taller than me. A 4m kit is probably cramped for him.

 

[richard12511]

Well, let's think it through. We ain't talking about Def Leppard here, so let's assume two arms, with a torso between. Say the kit is 13' wide, i.e. 4m. Say the L & R extremities are cymbals. He has to reach the meat of the metal with a stick. So the final, say, 3' on each side can be beyond the reach of his hands. Which gives him 7' in the center to deal with. I'm 6'4" with a 7' wingspan. Fleetwood is much taller than me. A 4m kit is probably cramped for him.

They're not on either side him though, they're in front of him in a line. Again, talking about the soundstage. What you're talking about is not actually 13ft. At most he would be able to play 7 to 8ft of drums(really just 7ft). If he were Manute Bol, maybe he could play 9ft of drums. No human has a 13ft wingspan.

 

[MediumRare]

They're not on either side him though, they're in front of him in a line. Again, talking about the soundstage. At most he would be able to play 7 to 8ft of drums.

Why is this a debate? Look at a darn photo. Facts please, not endless debate with only speculation.

 

[richard12511]

Why is this a debate? Look at a darn photo. Facts please, not endless debate with only speculation.

I might need to draw a picture, haha. It started because someone brought up how unreasonably large drums are in the sound-staging of some rock albums. I've heard quite a few deep drum hit sequences that fully cover the 4m distance(and more) between my fronts. The debate is about whether or not that's realistic.

I think he's talking about maybe a full drumset being close(end to end) to 13ft, with the drummer sitting in the middle of the arc. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the same deep drum(don't know what they're called) sound happening 5 or six times in a straight line covering 4m.

 

[richard12511]

Now I'm curious about the actual width of a large drum set.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

I read that last week when I first got my copy.
Another excellent job by JA to report the measurements and then find a way to dance around having to make any real negative comments.
He thinks of inventive ways to maybe mitigate the top end problems with placement and tube amps that will alter the FR at the top..
Can't throw any dirt on Tom Gibb's rave.
"The ability of Volti Audio's Razz to portray music of any genre with scale, realism, and thrilling dynamics is unmatched by any loudspeaker I've had in my system."

I will say I heard their Rival's at the last Tampa show and thought they sounded nice. ???

To be fair, this is what hearing looks like at 80 years old.

 

[richard12511]

Why is this a debate? Look at a darn photo. Facts please, not endless debate with only speculation.

You asked for photos. That's about the best way I can draw the drum soundstage I've heard on a few rock albums.

The preceding discussion that led to this was based around the correct size for a piano in the soundstage, which came from the designers statement that Volti speakers do an exceptional job with piano.

 

[MediumRare]

Now I'm curious about the actual width of a large drum set.

Sounds like you need to start a new thread.