Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[jojolapin102]

I can't help but wonder if there are design decisions in the analogue output stage that can be made in order to colour the output and give a sound. I think that it has been put to bed now that the digital conversion stage done by any competent DA chip and implementation will be audibly transparent to the user, but I do think that the analogue stage may be a different story. Curious what others think.

It's definitely possible, even outside of output stages, by adding capacitors and resistors to the right place, it's easy to create a band-pass/low-pass/high-pass filters, and reduce or increase the amplification factor of some frequencies. When you design an amplifier with discrete components, most of the time in audio applications when negative feedback is used (as it should be), you can model your amplifier by a block with two inputs, v+ and v-, and an output, Vout (like an OPAMP in some sorts), then, you just need to make a specific mounting of components to realize a filter, like a Sallen-Key or something similar, and here you go! An amplifier which adds colors to the sound

 

[Racheski]

It's definitely possible, even outside of output stages, by adding capacitors and resistors to the right place, it's easy to create a band-pass/low-pass/high-pass filters, and reduce or increase the amplification factor of some frequencies. When you design an amplifier with discrete components, most of the time in audio applications when negative feedback is used (as it should be), you can model your amplifier by a block with two inputs, v+ and v-, and an output, Vout (like an OPAMP in some sorts), then, you just need to make a specific mounting of components to realize a filter, like a Sallen-Key or something similar, and here you go! An amplifier which adds colors to the sound

I'm curious about this - is this adding "color" or "distortion" ? Do those terms sometimes get used interchangeably?

 

[jojolapin102]

One thing I think its worth pointing out about digital cables (USB, Coax) is that they can still transfer noise from the source if the source has noisy ground or power. Of course that's nothing to do with the cable per se and changing cable isn't going to help, but it does mean that digital in this sense is not immune to noise, there can still be noise if the source already has noisy power or if you're setting up a ground loop.

I have personal experience of this because one of my laptops has an audible hum in a USB connected DAC when using sensitive IEMs, but my PC or other laptops do not. This is resolved only by daisy chaining DACs with toslink (and so breaking the galvanic link).

You are 100% right with that, that's the major problem of USB connected DACs, especially when they are powered with USB, if USB isn't powering the DAC but only giving the signal, this is less a problem because simple filtering is most of the time enough, so it's often due to bad design unfortunately. I've also experienced that and effectively toslink is the only way

 

[jojolapin102]

I'm curious about this - is this adding "color" or "distortion" ? Do those terms sometimes get used interchangeably?

Well they are not necessarily related, but they can. By color I mean a non-flat frequency response, by putting some frequencies behind others, or the opposite, and then it's possible to add distorsion, even sometimes when it's not wanted, especially when you do a filter that's supposed to "force" the amplifier to amplify More some frequencies instead of decreasing all the others, that's just a difference of point of view, but if you reach the maximum gain of the amp, or the maximum capacity of the output stage or power supply, then you'll add distorsion

 

[Plcamp]

I really don’t think you need worry about digital cable quality unless you intend very long runs in abnormally noisy environments. I’ve not had problems with ordinary quality 50’ HDMI cables, as one example.

The bigger risk is the noise pickup on such a cable’s metallic interconnect to a remote device, particularly if they happen to be powered from different ac branch circuits. That can inject common mode noise which causes hum and background noise to rise. In that case I use optical for sound.

Different digital devices can have radically different responses to noise/thermals etc. Designers who fail to pay attention to timing and signal integrity analysis of their circuit (can be costly task) or who don’t observe noise mitigating PCB layout techniques, or who choose cheaper quality parts will create designs with less margin, noisier background and shorter life.

 

[paddycrow]

How about power cables? (I'm sure this has been touched on in the 86 pages of this thread.) If that four figure power cable makes such a huge difference, imagine what replacing the Romex in the wall will do! Why stop there, what about the transformer out on the utility pole?

 

[Racheski]

How about power cables? (I'm sure this has been touched on in the 86 pages of this thread.) If that four figure power cable makes such a huge difference, imagine what replacing the Romex in the wall will do! Why stop there, what about the transformer out on the utility pole?

...or your own utility pole

 

[Theriverlethe]

...or your own utility pole

You really need a solar installation for the cleanest power.

 

[A Surfer]

You really need a solar installation for the cleanest power.

You still can have noise, theoretically. Unless things have changed the batteries are not AC so the current has to be converted for end use which is where noise is possible. I rather doubt the noise would be audible, but you never know if the components aren't well designed.

 

[Theriverlethe]

You still can have noise, theoretically. Unless things have changed the batteries are not AC so the current has to be converted for end use which is where noise is possible. I rather doubt the noise would be audible, but you never know if the components aren't well designed.

Shhhh, I’m trying to get these rich idiots to do something useful by converting to green power.

 

[xthechar]

How about power cables? (I'm sure this has been touched on in the 86 pages of this thread.) If that four figure power cable makes such a huge difference, imagine what replacing the Romex in the wall will do! Why stop there, what about the transformer out on the utility pole?

You joke but this guy on youtube has done exactly that, rewired an entire room for his hifi equipment. Or so he claims, who knows if he's actually done it. This guy is one of the biggest "audiophile" nutcases I've ever seen and his videos are absolutely mindblowing in terms of the level of delusion, especially because he constantly talks crap on who he calls "audiophools" and tries to position himself and his multi thousand dollar products he endorses as the sensible option.

 

[KeithPhantom]

You joke but this guy on youtube has done exactly that, rewired an entire room for his hifi equipment. Or so he claims, who knows if he's actually done it. This guy is one of the biggest "audiophile" nutcases I've ever seen and his videos are absolutely mindblowing in terms of the level of delusion, especially because he constantly talks crap on who he calls "audiophools" and tries to position himself and his multi thousand dollar products he endorses as the sensible option.

That is the reason I don't consider myself an audiophile, and if someone refers to me with that word, I get offended and politely correct them by saying "I care about the fidelity of my music and related gear".

 

[A Surfer]

Shhhh, I’m trying to get these rich idiots to do something useful by converting to green power.

Tough sell, generally. I used to manage a retail store that specialized in environmentally aware/sensitive products and that included consulting and sales services for alternative energy products. Not many people interested in the modest work involved not to mention the money that needs to be invested. Getting better, and it should be subsidized much like how public money completely funded the development, deployment and maintenance of the fossil fuel based energy grid. I always found it funny why people are fine with having poured tens of billions of tax payer dollars over the decades into the fossil fuel based energy grid, but now that we have the technology to begin deploying green energy alternatives, suddenly it becomes too much like "socialism" to deploy public money in that direction. Rant over, my apology.

 

[jojolapin102]

That is the reason I don't consider myself an audiophile, and if someone refers to me with that word, I get offended and politely correct them by saying "I care about the fidelity of my music and related gear".

I totally agree with you, as an amateur musician, I consider myself as a music lover, not an audiophile because those people are completely crazy.

 

[KeithPhantom]

I totally agree with you, as an amateur musician, I consider myself as a music lover, not an audiophile because those people are completely crazy.

I also know how to play some instruments, and I can tell you I enjoy the music itself even over measurements. There is the other side: the measurement extremist, for that person if a DAC doesn't have a SINAD of <120 dB, it sucks. Measurements are really important, but there is a point that it is inaudible, even if it's good to strive for even better measurements, audible benefits will be small in the best of the cases.

 

[majingotan]

I also know how to play some instruments, and I can tell you I enjoy the music itself even over measurements. There is the other side: the measurement extremist, for that person if a DAC doesn't have a SINAD of <120 dB, it sucks. Measurements are really important, but there is a point that it is inaudible, even if it's good to strive for even better measurements, audible benefits will be small in the best of the cases.

After owning 5 different DACs and even listening to actual music at 97 dB SPL or louder, I just find this graph below to hold true from my experience. With my DACs ranging from ~85 dB to ~106 dB SINAD, I find it extremely hard to perceive a definite and objective sonic difference between the DACs from the top of the red zone all the way to green zone, nevermind the blue zone DACs

 

[KeithPhantom]

I find it extremely hard to perceive a definite and objective sonic difference between the DACs from the top of the red zone all the way to green zone, nevermind the blue zone DACs

I had a DAC from the red zone (the AKM4490 DAC included with the Asgard 3), and I don't think I heard a difference when I got my SMSL Sanskrit 10th Mark II (in the blue part). I bought it because the add-in card Schiit includes limits the power output of the amp, it doesn't measure up to my standards, and it was cheap enough that I even considered it an upgrade. I have a Magni Heresy on its way because it measures better, is smaller, and simply I don't need that much power (will sell my Asgard if the Magni comes to be a good product).

Regarding about audibility, Winer provided a nominal level of -80 dB and NwAvGuy one of -85 dB. I rather being extra safe and getting something closer to perfection if it isn't that expensive (because why not?). ASR is very strict with their limits, and I find that as a good thing. It promotes good engineering and the increase of these practices in chains where economies of scale (if audio companies can reach that) could provide us with lower prices, better products, and more competition.

 

[jojolapin102]

I also know how to play some instruments, and I can tell you I enjoy the music itself even over measurements. There is the other side: the measurement extremist, for that person if a DAC doesn't have a SINAD of <120 dB, it sucks. Measurements are really important, but there is a point that it is inaudible, even if it's good to strive for even better measurements, audible benefits will be small in the best of the cases.

You are right, starting some point, effectively the measurements prove it, some DACs are better than others, but this is on the paper, and on the reality, this is a non sense to make DACs with 132 dB of SNR because the increase in cost is clearly not useful.
Edit: grammar

 

[Plcamp]

An 8 channel DSP/DAC with remote source select and volume control...that doesn’t cost thousands...would be nice.

The reason I don’t buy the minidsp version that does exactly this, is fear the DACs are not good enough. I am hoping minidsp comes up with a cost effective 8 channel dsp with their SHD series quality DACs.

Then I read this thread. Does it matter or not?

Questions are much more easily asked than answered.

I am guessing right now that it doesn’t actually make a discernible difference, and I don’t see an objective way to determine otherwise.

 

[jojolapin102]

An 8 channel DSP/DAC with remote source select and volume control...that doesn’t cost thousands...would be nice.

The reason I don’t buy the minidsp version that does exactly this, is fear the DACs are not good enough. I am hoping minidsp comes up with a cost effective 8 channel dsp with their SHD series quality DACs.

Then I read this thread. Does it matter or not?

Questions are much more easily asked than answered.

I am guessing right now that it doesn’t actually make a discernible difference, and I don’t see an objective way to determine otherwise.

Well if you could see the datasheets of the DACs then you could know if it matters or not, if there is a "difference" or not, if you can't access the datasheets then it's pretty difficult, or at least you need some datas given by the manufacturer.