Blue Jeans Cables Jumps the Shark

[JimB]

Tough crowd.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

First off, I’m more concerned regarding a few things.

When someone wants to make claims of scientific merit and hen advocate for a new pragmatic approach to something, I first would like to understand first and foremost if they’re true. Since I’m a simpleton/laymen, I could never actually know if this is true simply because I am unable to test the claims, nor find any consensus yet. But it sounds reasonable enough with what I know, so to the whole ordeal about speed of signal based on the medium it’s traveling on/through... I simply charitably grant that this is the case.

Second, now I’m concerned with how such truth was actually ascertained. A measurement technique or infered from already existing knowledge, so we’re fine here too.

Third, what other industry, body of science states this new understanding will have pragmatic noticeable benefits to a consumer? Let’s say he can provide sources on this request, so we again continue along with our exploration of this ordeal.

Fourth, where has knowledge of this particular truth been employed in the audio products industry? Oh nowhere perhaps? Fair enough since this is your new discovery on how you’re basing your engineering principles on this new way of designing cables for instance.

Fifth, okay, you’ve done the work, you have measurements demonstrating some level of difference is occurring with your new design compared to others who didn’t take this new understanding into consideration. Have there been rigorous tests that conform to the most desireable blind test standards (double or triple) to determine if any of this is audible or noticeable by people? Oh what’s that? Not yet, no need because you have measurements that show a difference exists. Okay fine let’s move on to that.

Sixth, have you determined thresholds where human senses can detect the difference between such measurements by any chance? Well naturally no I assume, since that would require you to do a more rigorous form of blind testing as you’re now trying to establish not simply if your new product creates any audible difference at all, you’re now trying to determine a thing much more difficult (human thresholds intotality for the whole principle you’ve been working around). It’s like the difference between trying to see if a poison will kill you, and then trying to determine exact dosages for various levels of symptoms to the poison quantities administered.


Seventh. Okay okay, it’s a new approach, that’s understandable, and perhaps I ask too much. Would you care to show me where this application can help if I allowed you to create a near impossible scenario, an exaggerated instance where the benefits of your design can clearly be demonstrated? Like fulfilling some very demanding industrial need in some governmental institution, or some mega corporation using such an approach because anything less is simply too undesirable due to stringent performance expectations? Hmm haven’t seen this either sadly..

These are the sorts of stumbling that begins to pile on that one by one contribute to my skepticism even as a pure laymen. And I think most rational people do this kind of thinking automatically and very quickly almost without thinking about it (the sort of people who are versed in instantly smelling bullshit, is what I was basically describing with these steps).

Oh btw @direstraitsfan98

lol nice freakin Runescape gnome meme avatar

Great post.

These guys are clowns and need to be called out for it. You give them way too much credit because none of them will ever be able to prove anything. Audioquest, Nordost, Furuteech, Shunyata, and iFi Audio perpetuate the fraud by turning up volume of sound demos with their cables by .5dB when swapping cables.

It’s impossible to take these companies or the people behind them seriously.

 

[Tks]

Great post.

These guys are clowns and need to be called out for it. You give them way too much credit because none of them will ever be able to prove anything. Audioquest, Nordost, Furuteech, Shunyata, and iFi Audio perpetuate the fraud by turning up volume of sound demos with their cables by .5dB when swapping cables.

It’s impossible to take these companies or the people behind them seriously.

I like to give everyone the best fair shake I can imagine. I basically try to be at the point where I am begging people making extraordinary claims just to provide the lowest threshold needed for me to take their claim seriously.

I can imagine how tight margins could be when you're buying parts from other companies and making something like a cable, and simply charging for labor, of which you're competing with China with in most cases. Audio is tough to making a living in if you ask me, and trying to make honest and appreciable strides is perhaps one of the toughest things from what I've seen around the electronics industry. (Much tougher than something like televisions, that cater to the sense of sight, while audio that caters to the sense of hearing, is a far smaller industry unfortunately). And trying to make ends meet especially for a company that has been pretty much on the good side of consumer history and mind-share... That leads me to give them the most charitable chances at answering for their marketing claims today. If this were a company like AudioQuest for example or whatever, their history is plagued beyond repair - I doubt I'd even be able to offer anything more than internally laughing a bit at their attempts at literary creativity, as has been the case for most of their marketing. But because Blue Jeans has had a good history with people, well - I won't repeat myself more times than I already have.

I think it's a good policy overall for everyone to always be willing to extend good faith(if you're not jaded to shit) for everyone in audio because we are such a small community comparatively. Take Schiit for example lately.. A year ago everyone (here and everywhere else) would've laughed to hear a popular audio company that never took measurements serious, would go on to launch one of the best bang for buck amps of 2019 with objectively verifiable results to back it up. Heck most thought they don't listen much to anyone aside from a core base of people who know no better, or people who simply appreciate their DIY spirit/roots. But as we see, their claims that they listen to people ended up being true. They eventually started validating their products with their own APx555 measurements, and then just recently released a version of a popular product to show literally that they're willing to put their money where their mouth was, and conjure an actual product showing what they're capable of to address some of the criticism of the past.

It's a rare example of a demonstration of a confident company, making good on it's claims, having a rep here willing to work with folks and providing units if we feel we need our own tests, etc... And showing their actual attempts at improvements. All the while still communicating with members of a forum where Schiit didn't fair good at all the year before. Just goes to show there's actual people still out there in the company willing to grant even a small community like ours their ear. Have they fixed everything under the Sun, probably not, have they outdone themselves compared to most garbage incidents occurring in the industry these days? I'd like to say so.

Blue Jeans may be going through a rough patch. Who knows.. It's sad they're putting their brand behind something like this. But I'm pragmatic enough to say, if they don't depreciate their current work, and it remains or increases in quality, and nothing is lost. I wouldn't hold it against anyone making use of their service. Just really wish they would lay off the claims of audible improvements and such. Prove it at least if you're going to make such statements. Idk, when companies make unsubstantiated claims like that, I feel my stances change based on my mood >_<

It's wayyyy to late to be talking like this, and making firm statements. I'm going to bed, I feel like I'm rambling at this point. Sorry if anyone got frustrated reading that :\

 

[FrantzM]

A few days ago someone paid $120,000 for this :

Read about this here

That goes to tell you that some people have money and are willing to spend it.
Blue Jeans is in the business to make a profit, they have identified a market. Margins can be extremely high in this market where a USB cable can sell upward of $15,000 and yes people! some audiophiles have it in their system .. whether they paid the full price or a fraction of it is a different issue but I can bet their discount is not 80% and even then it would have cost $3000 for a USB cable identical in performance to those they throw in a box for free !!! So why not sell to them? Accompanied by a story? In the case of the Iconoclast, some differences might show up in measurements. I am certain they are inaudible, utterly irrelevant to the audio band and reproduction but there! The FUD has landed! Those who pay crazy prices don't buy measurements, they buy a story and Blue Jeans is serving them. Not pleased or enthused but I understand.

 

[DonH56]

Protip: Buy bulk Mogami/Belden/Canare cables, Neutrik connectors, RoHS solder and all kinds of colourful heatshrink/Techflex tubing. Make your own cables and delude yourself along the way.

I would be doing that if my local electronics supplier didn't charge $9 CAD for a single Canare 3.5mm jack. And it goes from there...

I would use standard tin-lead solder if at all possible. RoHS is harder to deal with. Agree with the rest. Make mine blue.

 

[Darkweb]

Don’t forget that all BJC does is solder connectors and provide distribution.

The cable was designed by a longtime Belden engineer and made on Belden factory equipment. The opportunity cost of using their highly specialized equipment to produce small batch audio cables has to make up a large portion of the product cost.

It least this Belden engineer is using sound engineering principles in his cable design and not fairy dust. He seems to think it matters.

 

[Darkweb]

There was some arguing about these cables over on AS a while ago: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/56060-ho-ho-ho-belden-and-blue-jeans-join-the-dark-side/
It was somewhat entertaining until the thread was closed.

Thanks for the link Garbage Can Man. That is really funny.

 

[Tks]

@Darkweb

The cost isn't much of an issue tbh. It's the claims attempting a justification of said price that are leaving a sour taste for folks.

Like if they said: "Here's the time sink and comparitive effort required to build these cables... and why we're pricing them like this." I doubt many would have a problem then. Though the way making money works in the modern world, hiding these aspects is the status quo, as no one wants to potentially reveal their profit margins or anything of that sort, as that opens up more cans of worms, and being called out for things like greed and various other potentially disastrous PR nightmares. (I'd go more into how modern practice of economics depends on someone eventually getting fucked in the end, but that's outside the scope of things).


But when you want to run around with some allusions to some benefits to the threshold of human audibility, all we ask is a scientifically sound demonstration using human blind tests for example. The moment to protest, or try to find excuses for doing such, is the moment doubt and disdain toward your good will and honesty, begin to pile up against you. The more you keep finding excuses, the less and less chances your claims of being true actually are. On top of also contributing to more people upset with you as time goes on for not acting in good faith and at least proving your own claims.

 

[scott wurcer]

These have been around for over four years now. Old news haha. Here is a pdf from Belden from October of 2015:
iconoclast_tm__speaker_cable.pdf

Somebody at Belden is either very clueless or very disingenuous. The characteristic impedance, from the telegrapher's equation, of a transmission line at lengths << than one wave length is essentially meaningless. There is insignificant energy lost compared to energy stored unless the line is many wavelengths long.

 

[scott wurcer]

Let's assume that statement is true for audio frequencies; I don't know that it is, and I doubt it is significant. If VP varied such that there was a 300 nanosecond difference between propagation at 20Hz and 20KHz in a 15 foot copper speaker cable, would it make an audible difference? It seems very doubtful to me.

There is a fundamental lack of understanding here velocity of propagation of an EM wave has nothing to do with the phase observed due to treating a cable/speaker system as a simple R/L/C network. This stuff keeps appearing, it's all BS.

 

[TLEDDY]

Well, it's like Vodka:

What is Vodka?

60% water, 40% ethanol (in the US)

"In the United States, many vodkas are made from 95% pure grain alcohol produced in large quantities by agricultural-industrial giants Archer Daniels Midland, Grain Processing Corporation, and Midwest Grain Products (MGP). Bottlers purchase the base spirits in bulk, then filter, dilute, distribute and market the end product under a variety of vodka brand names. Similar methods are used in other regions such as Europe."

View attachment 42293

View attachment 42292

Gotta have a story...

A fancy name probably doesn't hurt, either.

And a nice bottle, with a unique cap.

Never try any of the citrus based Florida Vodkas... gag a maggot!

 

[snapsc]

Two further thoughts Blue Jeans/Iconoclast:

First...Blue Jeans never makes the claim that the iconoclast cables sound better; "Whether you tell us you hear a profound difference, or no difference at all, or anywhere in between, we will never tell you what you do or do not hear; and when you want to return something to us, there's no questioning and no attempt to make you change your mind -- you don't even need to call for an RMA. Just ship it back. But don't be surprised if you find yourself choosing not to do that". Reading through all the words on their website, you do get the impression that they are well made and may measure better in some areas and if you hear an improvement, well that is on you.

Second...I'm assuming that as a large supplier to Blue Jeans and given Blue Jeans reputation for quality and service, Belden asked them to take over making the cables from the small company in Ohio that had been doing it initially.

A month ago I discovered a small company, Pine Tree Audio, that gives you the option ($25) to get two pages of test data (AC resistance, DC resistance, Inductance and Capacitance on anything you buy from them...and as you will see from the links, the cables look good and the prices are fair. Oh, and they will do custom work as well, I had them make hex braided 14awg into 9awg legged speaker cables with Nakamichi plugs.

I may start a new thread and post some photos and the test results along with some thoughts about sound...count me in the camp of I've never experienced an improvement in sound when I had someone switch my cables without telling me.

 

[dgkula]

Sure, however no speaker cable can rend it's best - sonically-wise, without a proper lifter, as this one from Nordost US, which offers a great deal as it comes in packs of two so that one can get covered up to 6 ft. cable length per pack ...

https://www.nordost.com/sort-systems/sort-lift.php

Those are absolutely unreal. A fool and his money ...

 

[scott wurcer]

Those are absolutely unreal. A fool and his money ...

"elevates the sound stage" You have to love this stuff.

 

[snapsc]

You can make your own cables fairly easily and inexpensively or you can buy them. There is really no need to pay $300, $500, $1000 and more for cables. If you really think that cables change/improve the sound, have a friend change your cables several times throughout the week and see if you can detect whether a change has been made and what cable is in the system...but don't have them tell you whether they actually made a change. If you detect changes that weren't made, or don't detect changes that were, why spend all the extra $$$?

Having read through this post along with some of the Iconoclast/Blue Jeans materials is what motivated me to start another thread on the subject of a company making affordable, good looking cables not putting forth pseudoscience claims and able to supply test results for the resistance, capacitance and inductance of every cable someone orders from them.

This isn't my company, I just like giving people options...here is another one that offers techflex covered Canare Star Quad...no testing available.

 

[ex audiophile]

I just became aware of this change at BJC; how disappointing! I have purchased most of my cables from BJC using their welded locking banana connectors and have been very satisfied. However, I will no longer support BJC but rather buy from Monoprice or similar. As others have said, the Iconoclast cables are likely very high quality, but eating with a sterling silver spoon does make the food taste any different.
The only way we can make a difference is with our wallets so I encourage others to express themselves to BJC and to buy elsewhere.

 

[raistlin65]

I just became aware of this change at BJC; how disappointing! I have purchased most of my cables from BJC using their welded locking banana connectors and have been very satisfied. However, I will no longer support BJC but rather buy from Monoprice or similar. As others have said, the Iconoclast cables are likely very high quality, but eating with a sterling silver spoon does make the food taste any different.
The only way we can make a difference is with our wallets so I encourage others to express themselves to BJC and to buy elsewhere.

Try Ghent Audio. Quality cables. Prices are similar to BJC. Ghent ships directly from China. I've been using them the last few years.

 

[RayDunzl]

The only way we can make a difference is with our wallets so I encourage others to express themselves to BJC and to buy elsewhere.

You feel a need to punish BLC because they offer something for sale that you don't want?

Should someone who does want to buy the Iconoclast cable boycott BJC because they also sell lesser goods?

 

[ex audiophile]

You feel a need to punish BLC because they offer something for sale that you don't want?

Should someone who does want to buy the Iconoclast cable boycott BJC because they also sell lesser goods?

No, I have stopped purchasing from BJC because they have aligned themselves with a company selling bullshit. And I hope others do the same to send a message that we want the pseudoscience and unsubstantiated claims to be gone. Anyone wishing to buy BJ or IC is more than welcome to do so.

 

[ex audiophile]

Try Ghent Audio. Quality cables. Prices are similar to BJC. Ghent ships directly from China. I've been using them the last few years.

Try Ghent Audio. Quality cables. Prices are similar to BJC. Ghent ships directly from China. I've been using them the last few years.

Thanks, they have a nice site and the cables look to be well made. I did not see locking banana terminations which I prefer. Someone else on this site mentioned Pine Tree Audio; it is a one man shop. He was happy to make whatever length I needed with locking bananas, the cost was quoted as $150 for a pair of 20 foot, 14g cables. And of course we can make our own but I'm not good at soldering!