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Blue Jeans Cables Jumps the Shark

snapsc

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I have nothing against China...they are increasing making a lot of good stuff...but why would I/you/we want to outsource even more jobs, or even one job for that matter, by buying cables from China when there are good options here as well...if you don't like the stuff offered by Pine Tree Audio...which I can personally vouch for...at least hex braided speaker cable that is....then here are two more good "made in America" options.

Digital Connections Inc. located in Minneapolis

Ram Electronics located in New Jersey

Sorry....this is just a pet peeve of mine

One more thing....go to the Blue Jeans Cable page...they don't push iconoclast, they simply give a link. They never claim that iconoclast has superior sonic properties....only that it is a unique, well made cable for which iconoclast publishes resistance, capacitance and inductance which you can directly compare to Pine Tree Audio....how many other companies publish their numbers??
 

gattaca

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^^^ Interesting thread.

I agree. As I've aged, I'm learned to appreciate "Made in the USA" much more and I'm willing to pay a more b/c I know my small action is supporting a USA company and jobs.

Personally, I really try to buy local, then Made in the USA, then Made in Canada and finally elsewhere. In some cases there are no Made in the USA options. I also pay close attention to all the certifications: UL, etc.. when considering electronics - though cables are mostly no-ops in that field though I'm sure some are fully UL, ETL etc.. certified. :)

Personally, if anyone wants to spend $ on "specialized" cabling for your AV setup, which you believe furthers your design goals, (and of course the better 1/2 agrees too)..., then by all means have it at. It's just not something I can wrap my head around but I am not chasing that last few decimal points of precision and accuraacy in a 6+ figure, no-holds-barred, AV setup either - but they might have customers who are and want to use their products. Would I if I won the lottery - maybe?

There's a place locally which specializes in custom HT designs and setups in very $$$ houses. They have been doing this for 40+ years I think now. All the other smaller shops have long since vanished - BB excluded. They also sell higher end AV stuff - you all know the names Krell, etc.. So while I have no dog in the hunt, it's up to each person to decide whether to support a company for whatever your reason is. They also happen to sell something I like - Magnepans which I've used for 30+ years now. :)

My gut says BJC may have been getting request for these types of cables and sees it as an opportunity expand it's customer base which helps it be profitable and remain in business. Is it solid science/engineering? Maybe, maybe not - depends on a lot of things. 40 years ago no one would have thought a stealth aircraft was possible. 20 years ago no one would have believed you could make a 2000 WPC AV amplifier weighing less than 20 lbs either. Peace.
 

raistlin65

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Is it solid science/engineering? Maybe, maybe not - depends on a lot of things. 40 years ago no one would have thought a stealth aircraft was possible. 20 years ago no one would have believed you could make a 2000 WPC AV amplifier weighing less than 20 lbs either.

Incorrect. There's no maybe or maybe not. Audio science can easily explain why people perceive differences with very expensive cables vs. inexpensive ones, and it's not because they provide the claimed benefits or they have fantastic engineering in them. The situation is nothing at all like when science is incapable of theorizing a technology, and then can build it 30 years later.
 

gattaca

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^^^ Funny, you missed my overall point of the posting. Sciences advances at rapid pace on that I will agree. So if X is so easily explained, then more people would accept X as fact and everyone reading this forum would be scrambling to buy X. But... from the tone of this thread, it sure seems that is not the case: "BS, snakeoil, ...." I stated clearly I could not wrap my head around doing so - but I can also understand why someone might be chasing that last .0001% at whatever the costs - whatever the reason - uniqueness, bragging rights, engineering marvel,... whatever floats your boat so to speak. Geeze, there are people who buy AMPs costing $250K each!

The real point is readers can believe whatever WRT to cables, surge suppressors, noise filters, LPSes, AMPS, Class A, AB, H, D,.. and spend their $ however they feel appropriate with whatever vendor they choose. Just because a vendor sells a product I'm not going to buy does not make'm off limits. BJC is a business satisfying a market need. For instance, if I really didn't shop at a store that sold anything "Made in China" I'd starve to death and be SOL on buying almost anything ever again.

I'd like to think the OWNER of BJC, decided to be more inclusive and offer something for all we know they had people hounding them for. Why? B/C most businesses just do not offer something for which there is no market and no opportunity to make revenue, pay employees, keep the doors open, .... And if BJC makes extra revenue and stays in business making the high quality Made in the USA cables they are known for too, then - awesome job! That IS a win/win for everyone in the USA. Yes, even customers who may choose not to use them. Why? Because that creates competition for the entire space and we all benefit. Cheers, and Peace.
 
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raistlin65

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^^^ Funny, you missed my overall point of the posting. Sciences advances at rapid pace on that I will agree. So if X is so easily explained, then more people would accept X as fact and everyone reading this forum would be scrambling to buy X. But... from the tone of this thread, it sure seems that is not the case: "BS, snakeoil, ...." I stated clearly I could not wrap my head around doing so - but I can also understand why someone might be chasing that last .0001% at whatever the costs - whatever the reason - uniqueness, bragging rights, engineering marvel,... whatever floats your boat so to speak. Geeze, there are people who buy AMPs costing $250K each!

The real point is readers can believe whatever WRT to cables, surge suppressors, noise filters, LPSes, AMPS, Class A, AB, H, D,.. and spend their $ however they feel appropriate with whatever vendor they choose. Just because a vendor sells a product I'm not going to buy does not make'm off limits. BJC is a business satisfying a market need. For instance, if I really didn't shop at a store that sold anything "Made in China" I'd starve to death and be SOL on buying almost anything ever again.

I'd like to think the OWNER of BJC, decided to be more inclusive and offer something for all we know they had people hounding them for. Why? B/C most businesses just do not offer something for which there is no market and no opportunity to make revenue, pay employees, keep the doors open, .... And if BJC makes extra revenue and stays in business making the high quality Made in the USA cables they are known for too, then - awesome job! That IS a win/win for everyone in the USA. Yes, even customers who may choose not to use them. Why? Because that creates competition for the entire space and we all benefit. Cheers, and Peace.

I am not debating your entire post. Let's not cloud the issue here. You claimed "Is it solid science/engineering? Maybe, maybe not." That statement is inaccurate. There's no dispute in audio science about the snake oil proposition of expensive cables. The only "maybe" is coming from the marketing prose of cable manufacturers and the junk science that evolves from it, as well as the audiophiles who buy into it. We are not going to find out in 30 years that audiophiles are correct about the sonic benefits. ABX testing has already confirmed that they are not.

It is worth noting that Blue Jeans Cable is doing the same thing that HiFi stores started doing in the 1980s when this cable nonsense took off. They can make more money if they sell expensive cables that add no sonic value to a system. Only BJC knows better, whereas in the 1980s, I'm sure the HiFi store retailers believed it was helping. So given this is an audio science forum, I don't think it's good to congratulate BJC on their choice to sell expensive cables. Let's promote science instead.
 

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Wombat

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A few days ago someone paid $120,000 for this :
View attachment 42412

Read about this here

That goes to tell you that some people have money and are willing to spend it.
Blue Jeans is in the business to make a profit, they have identified a market. Margins can be extremely high in this market where a USB cable can sell upward of $15,000 and yes people! some audiophiles have it in their system .. whether they paid the full price or a fraction of it is a different issue but I can bet their discount is not 80% and even then it would have cost $3000 for a USB cable identical in performance to those they throw in a box for free !!! So why not sell to them? Accompanied by a story? In the case of the Iconoclast, some differences might show up in measurements. I am certain they are inaudible, utterly irrelevant to the audio band and reproduction but there! The FUD has landed! Those who pay crazy prices don't buy measurements, they buy a story and Blue Jeans is serving them. Not pleased or enthused but I understand.

Yum.

 

snapsc

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When you go to the Blue Jeans Cable website...on the left side they give you a number of "types of cables" option...and when you click on an option and begin to read about the cable, they clearly tell you whether it is a Blue Jeans made cable, a Belden made cable, etc...and never to they claim "sonic superiority".

When you click on their link to "introducing the iconoclast cable"...they go go on to clearly explain that this is a marketing arrangement....and then after a bunch of paragraphs they say..."A year later we met Galen Gareis, and here we are with the most well-engineered product we can imagine".

Click on the next links and Galen explains why he thinks his cable sounds different even though R, L and C may be the same as other cables...and then he goes on to explain that there is one additional factor that needs to be considered...and that is time alignment...which he discusses in great detail over 22 pages....and to which he summarizes by saying that poorly made cables will sound warm and soft.

I have a couple of thoughts here...I think that as an engineer who has worked in the cable field his whole life, Galen absolutely believes that time alignment can be measured and that his cables sound different...notice I said he believes it because nowhere does Blue Jeans say that the iconoclast cables are superior sounding cables....only that they are well engineered and well made.

As for cables measuring well, but poorly made cables sounding soft and warm...my only thought is that I just bought a pair of really well made custom made cables from Pine Tree Audio...six 14 gauge wires hex braided into 9 gauge cables...and they don't sound soft, they don't sound warm and they cost less than 10% of the $1600 10' long iconoclast cables. So for me, there are a lot of other places to spend "audio dollars" where I think the improvement in sound would be much greater.

The fundamental issue, I suspect is hard science vs the psychology of perception and preference vs thing not yet understood/discovered.

Therefore, Caveat Emptor
 

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When you go to the Blue Jeans Cable website...on the left side they give you a number of "types of cables" option...and when you click on an option and begin to read about the cable, they clearly tell you whether it is a Blue Jeans made cable, a Belden made cable, etc...and never to they claim "sonic superiority".

When you click on their link to "introducing the iconoclast cable"...they go go on to clearly explain that this is a marketing arrangement....and then after a bunch of paragraphs they say..."A year later we met Galen Gareis, and here we are with the most well-engineered product we can imagine".

Click on the next links and Galen explains why he thinks his cable sounds different even though R, L and C may be the same as other cables...and then he goes on to explain that there is one additional factor that needs to be considered...and that is time alignment...which he discusses in great detail over 22 pages....and to which he summarizes by saying that poorly made cables will sound warm and soft.

I have a couple of thoughts here...I think that as an engineer who has worked in the cable field his whole life, Galen absolutely believes that time alignment can be measured and that his cables sound different...notice I said he believes it because nowhere does Blue Jeans say that the iconoclast cables are superior sounding cables....only that they are well engineered and well made.

As for cables measuring well, but poorly made cables sounding soft and warm...my only thought is that I just bought a pair of really well made custom made cables from Pine Tree Audio...six 14 gauge wires hex braided into 9 gauge cables...and they don't sound soft, they don't sound warm and they cost less than 10% of the $1600 10' long iconoclast cables. So for me, there are a lot of other places to spend "audio dollars" where I think the improvement in sound would be much greater.

The fundamental issue, I suspect is hard science vs the psychology of perception and preference vs thing not yet understood/discovered.

Therefore, Caveat Emptor

I agree wholeheartedly but with one exception. The BJ website includes a rather irritating statement that clearly implies if you have a modest system you'll be fine with modest cables, but if you want the best in AUDIO QUALITY you should try these new IC cables. Implying secondarily that if you have a high end system you'll need high end cables to get the best sound quality. Here it is word for word,

"Are they worth it? Obviously those of us with more modest systems can find other cost-effective ways to improve audio quality, and as we've said above, there's no denying that conventional designs work very well indeed. But if you are one of those who is reaching for the utmost in audio quality, and you're interested in whether wire and cable can play a role in that, please give them a try. "

I suppose you could find the statement nebulous enough as to not claim sonic superiority, however to me it is an example of the often used psychological ploy of making you think your system is "OK" but could be better if only you bought their outrageously priced product whose superior properties are conveniently never documented. Ask IC cables why they do not publish blind comparisons of their product if you want pages and pages of such nonsense.
 

snapsc

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I agree that I'd rather they didn't use the "psychological ploy" approach.

So, how about these beauties instead....I'm starting to think the secret is to have a catchy name...like Supremus.
 

RayDunzl

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Let's have a naming contest:

Totalitarian World Dominator Prime Minister 2.0 Excelsior Quad Superconducting Triple D Cup Ambassador 7 Silver Eminence Royal Golden Diamond Excellence Interconnector
 

ex audiophile

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Let's have a naming contest:

Totalitarian World Dominator Prime Minister 2.0 Excelsior Quad Superconducting Triple D Cup Ambassador 7 Silver Eminence Royal Golden Diamond Excellence Interconnector

with built in trestles, thermal sleeve and battery powered electrostatic repulsion system
 

raistlin65

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Let's have a naming contest:

Totalitarian World Dominator Prime Minister 2.0 Excelsior Quad Superconducting Triple D Cup Ambassador 7 Silver Eminence Royal Golden Diamond Excellence Interconnector

I don't want those. I want the new technology cables that are infused with dark matter.
 

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I think the triple D cup caused some temporary disorientation
 

dkinric

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I love my current interconnects, insane imaging and separation. Here's a cross section:

XLR Interconnect.jpg
 

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look more like triple C to me; perfectly suitable for a modest system.
 
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ex audiophile

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When you go to the Blue Jeans Cable website...on the left side they give you a number of "types of cables" option...and when you click on an option and begin to read about the cable, they clearly tell you whether it is a Blue Jeans made cable, a Belden made cable, etc...and never to they claim "sonic superiority".

When you click on their link to "introducing the iconoclast cable"...they go go on to clearly explain that this is a marketing arrangement....and then after a bunch of paragraphs they say..."A year later we met Galen Gareis, and here we are with the most well-engineered product we can imagine".

Click on the next links and Galen explains why he thinks his cable sounds different even though R, L and C may be the same as other cables...and then he goes on to explain that there is one additional factor that needs to be considered...and that is time alignment...which he discusses in great detail over 22 pages....and to which he summarizes by saying that poorly made cables will sound warm and soft.

I have a couple of thoughts here...I think that as an engineer who has worked in the cable field his whole life, Galen absolutely believes that time alignment can be measured and that his cables sound different...notice I said he believes it because nowhere does Blue Jeans say that the iconoclast cables are superior sounding cables....only that they are well engineered and well made.

As for cables measuring well, but poorly made cables sounding soft and warm...my only thought is that I just bought a pair of really well made custom made cables from Pine Tree Audio...six 14 gauge wires hex braided into 9 gauge cables...and they don't sound soft, they don't sound warm and they cost less than 10% of the $1600 10' long iconoclast cables. So for me, there are a lot of other places to spend "audio dollars" where I think the improvement in sound would be much greater.

The fundamental issue, I suspect is hard science vs the psychology of perception and preference vs thing not yet understood/discovered.

Therefore, Caveat Emptor

Nice article on the issue of perception with regards to music, just posted on Audioholics. https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/mind-over-music
 
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