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Turntables, cartidges, and phono stages

scott wurcer

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Sure there is...but what's the algorithm?

And which alignment of pivoted arm?

Just thinking out loud, you would ideally need to enter all the parameters and unfortunately the instantaneous radius on the LP. I do have the CBS Labs test LP with constant velocity sweeps at three different radii, it would be tedious but recording all three with one of the standard alignments and then each with the cart aligned just for that radius (or switch to a linear tracker) could show how much one might achieve.

A strange idea of fun, I know.
 

watchnerd

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Just thinking out loud, you would ideally need to enter all the parameters and unfortunately the instantaneous radius on the LP. I do have the CBS Labs test LP with constant velocity sweeps at three different radii, it would be tedious but recording all three with one of the standard alignments and then each with the cart aligned just for that radius (or switch to a linear tracker) could show how much one might achieve.

A strange idea of fun, I know.

I think you could go from linear to pivoted...but not the other way around....because the distortion introduced by a pivoting arm due to alignment compromises can't be undone in a lossless way.
 

JP

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JeffS7444

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Based on these tests, I purchased an Ortofon 2M red:
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/70-tests/103-cartridge-tests.html?showall=1

I don't currently have a test LP which would let me confirm frequency response. As I'm using the built-in preamp in an A-T LP120 , signal is only passing through short pieces of wire (~50 pf load capacitance? I should probably add a bit more).

Inner groove distortion is an annoyance with one particular LP (Guardians of the Galaxy) but whether that's due to tracing error or lower linear velocity, I couldn't say. I aligned the cartridge using a Stevenson protractor.
 

Thomas_A

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The "old" test records are the best (DIN, CBS, Denon). I have none of these but some current ones in production (Ortofon, Hifi News, Tacet, Elipson, Ultimate..). The Elipson would be my choice if you need one that currently is in production.
 

levimax

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Ready for a truly hot topic?

Which alignment do you prefer, and why?

-Stevenson
-Baerwald
-Loefgren
-UNI-DIN
-Other
Other... Technics 52 mm over hang alignment tool. Fast, easy, works. My understand is the results are a little different than any of the above
 

anmpr1

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Which alignment do you prefer, and why? -Stevenson -Baerwald -Loefgren -UNI-DIN -Other

The best analysis (I'm sure most folks are aware of it already) is Graeme Dennes' two papers: a) An Analysis of Six Major Articles on Tonearm Alignment and Optimisation; b) Is the Lofgren 'A' Solution Unique? I found them for download at the vinylengine dot com site.

Dennes' survey shows that Erik Lofgren was the first to solve the geometric problem of minimizing lateral error (WTE, or weighted tracking error). Baerwald, Seagrave, Stevenson, Kessler and Pisha also produced optimum solutions, their equations identical to Lofgren's, with some different notation.

In addition to his primary solution, Lofgren developed an alignment to minimize WTE in arms where the offset angle was fixed (as I understand it, the cartridge could not be rotated in the arm to provide an optimum angle), but overhang could be adjusted. This 'solution' was obviously a kludge, and can be discounted. No one should be using such a tonearm, today.

Lofgren also devised a third alignment which solves a different problem than minimizing WTE. This alignment minimizes a possible psycho-acoustic effect. That is, a so-called 'cumulative annoyance factor'. The alignment lowers WTE peak distortion between the nulls, at the expense of increasing WTE at the inner and outer grooves. Thus, this alignment can be said to solve a different problem than that of minimizing WTE, but is certainly a valid approach.

In addition to confirming Lofgren's WTE solution, Stevenson also devised an alignment for specifically reducing inner groove distortion, at the expense of higher WTE distortion over the rest (around 75%) of the record. This alignment was devised primarily due to poor tracking from cartridges and arms in the '50s and '60s. With modern stylus shapes and better arms, it is mostly a solution to a problem that no longer exists. I have read that this is the alignment Technics uses for their turntables (the little white plastic jig everyone is familiar with). If it is so, perhaps in a disco, inner groove distortion is a bigger factor than would be the case in an audiophile environment, and that could be the reason for it. If there is a reason.

Of academic/forensic interest is the fact that Baerwald was familiar with Lofgren's paper, but did not give him credit for it, at a time when others did not know of this earlier work. To quote Dennes: However, a further injustice was done to Lofgren. To the best of the writer's knowledge, Baerwald never refuted the ongoing professional recognition accorded to him by peers and the audio world for the development of the optimum alignment solution, He again chose to remain silent.

To wrap, Dennes also discusses the even earlier, but incomplete work of Bela Harsanyi and Percy Wilson.
 
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JP

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LOLOL. Given the amazing amount of stuff from you that's landed here, I'm not exactly worried. :D

Email me if you don't have our Phoenix address.

Think I have it. Re: the Puffin, I think I powered it up once, but can’t remember. If I’ve a spare, I’ll send one of the INAMP boards I use these days. Throw one of Jan’s switchers at it.

Haven't forgotten - can't remember where I stashed it!
 

Frank Dernie

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I agree 100%, but phono stages with XLR inputs, even at the high end, are not as common as they should be.

Allegedly, the phono inputs on amp are somehow balanced while using an RCA plug. I don't get how that would work.
The Devialet is weird in as much as the sockets are isolated from chassis and circuit ground, so the bit which would normally be earthed to the chassis and ground plane on the pcb isn't. It is certainly a non-standard use of the connectors, neither of the loudspeaker connections are connected to chassis ground either iirc.
 

BDWoody

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My experience with the DSP-based phono stage in my Devialet has convinced me that ADC/DSP phono stage has the potential to offer "as good as it gets" performance.

Fortunately, others seem to have agreed and have made stand-alone products at a lower price point. I haven't personally used or heard one, but from what I've seen and read, the Parks Audio Puffin ($449), which also uses ADC and DSP, looks really interesting and flexible:

http://parksaudiollc.com/

I just picked one up. I sent the pro-ject DS+ off to SIY to get to know, and thought I'd give it a try. So far, initial impressions are quite good. Seems to have a lot of things to play around with, so that's always fun.

I also like the idea of a digital phono stage...and this is a bit less of a commitment than the Devialet... I think this is the way it will go in the future.

On another note, you mentioned 45's a while back...
I got a few 45's that came (unexpectedly) along with some LP's I just got.

Cleaned up and played Juice Newton.

Let me rephrase that...

Cleaned up and listened to the single, 'Angel of the Morning,' performed by Juice Newton.

Very impressive... Made me get the headphones.

I've got a few more that came that I'll be going through, but definitely really really good sounding. Might have to keep my eye out for the occasional interesting 45...

Thanks for the heads up.
 

BDWoody

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I’ve had my vinyl rig for about 2 weeks now. I’m using a Goldring 1042 (Jelco TK850M) into Puffin Phono DSP. Ergononically, I don’t think Shannon Parks made the best choices. The RCA inputs/outputs are located on the top surface which makes for an unnecessarily busy look. The LED screen is also difficult to read unless you’re directly over the device. The menu has too many options (16) to scroll through. Sonically, I can’t speak to Puffin as an individual component but I am very happy with the overall rig.

I don't love the top connectors really either... I'm using 90's to help.

Otherwise...so far so good.

15676849302431862340725810495453.jpg
15676849690807740205968489807554.jpg
 

Robin L

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Ready for a truly hot topic?

Which alignment do you prefer, and why?

-Stevenson
-Baerwald
-Loefgren
-UNI-DIN
-Other
Lossless files ripped from CDs.

It's ridiculous that this supposedly "Hi-End" format has no way of being perfectly on target. One of the reasons why I gave up on vinyl.
 

Frank Dernie

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Lossless files ripped from CDs.

It's ridiculous that this supposedly "Hi-End" format has no way of being perfectly on target. One of the reasons why I gave up on vinyl.
True, but there is a real something to discuss though whereas the DAC tests are pretty well just confirmation that DACs have been audibly transparent for a couple of decades, even most of the eccentrically engineered ones whereas there are always ways to tune a record player to taste since it is fundamentally flawed and can actually never have all the compromises resolved to an extent where they are inaudible IMO, particularly as some shortcomings are inherent, such as the cartridge damping being in the wrong place.
 

Robin L

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True, but there is a real something to discuss though whereas the DAC tests are pretty well just confirmation that DACs have been audibly transparent for a couple of decades, even most of the eccentrically engineered ones whereas there are always ways to tune a record player to taste since it is fundamentally flawed and can actually never have all the compromises resolved to an extent where they are inaudible IMO, particularly as some shortcomings are inherent, such as the cartridge damping being in the wrong place.
What really did it for me was having a small, and not really profitable, hobby/business of transferring LPs and a few other spiral groove discs to digital formats. Most of the time I was dealing with the least successful sorts of recordings, like High School Choirs or favorite discs bought back in 1965 and played on a Silvertone all-in-one unit with a flip-down turntable mechanism tracking at around 10 grams for 30 years. Needless to say, I was dealing with discs that weren't all that good to begin with + years of damage. Another was trying out all those different options for overhang, VTA & so on. Even had a linear tracking Sony turntable. That only made the inner groove distortion stand out with all that "crisp" definition. It's true that with the LP format there will always be something to talk about but there never will be true satisfaction.
 

BDWoody

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Are you going to install the digital-out mod?

I was actually just thinking about finally getting that done next week. Haven't messed with it yet as I've been working through a few component combo's, but should be a fairly quick deal once I actually sit down to do it.

I will post an update when I get it sorted out and plugged back into the system.
 

watchnerd

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I was actually just thinking about finally getting that done next week. Haven't messed with it yet as I've been working through a few component combo's, but should be a fairly quick deal once I actually sit down to do it.

I will post an update when I get it sorted out and plugged back into the system.

Cool.

Have you tried the 'tube' and 'tape' effects?

If so, how do you find them?
 

BDWoody

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Cool.

Have you tried the 'tube' and 'tape' effects?

If so, how do you find them?

I have a little, but not a ton...and haven't done anything remotely 'controlled.'

My subjective impressions were exactly what I expected (imagine that...), in terms of impact on the sound, and I found none of it specifically objectionable. More listening is in order.

I have been using a Nakamichi preamp lately.

15739371376335053813841700912488.jpg
1116191540b.jpg


Been having good fun with it...

Contour, tone controls, and channel balance...but in that old fashioned way.

I'll get that mod on the puffin done next week...
 

watchnerd

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I have a little, but not a ton...and haven't done anything remotely 'controlled.'

My subjective impressions were exactly what I expected (imagine that...), in terms of impact on the sound, and I found none of it specifically objectionable. More listening is in order.

I have been using a Nakamichi preamp lately.

View attachment 39039View attachment 39038

Been having good fun with it...

Contour, tone controls, and channel balance...but in that old fashioned way.

I'll get that mod on the puffin done next week...

WTH....is it tall but shallow?
 
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