Amp recommendation for Maggie 3.7i, opinions welcomed

[tensor9]

So I've temporarily and inadvertently hijacked a couple of threads, so I thought I'd start a new thread to get some input. I'm ampless right now, so I need to order something soon. I'm driving Magnepan 3.7i.

Candidates:
Benchmark AHB2 (190 clean watts in to 4 Ohm, max 29A/channel)
Apollon's Purifi (275 or so clean watts into 4 Ohm, max 25A/channel)
Apollon's Hypex NC1200 (500+ clean watts into 4 Ohm, 38A/channel)
All good with 2 Ohm loads, the NC1200 even more so.

Of course all will supply more power at higher distortion. I would prefer two AHB2s, but I don't really want to pay that much.

What do you think? I'm leaning towards the NC1200 for the power, but the clean Purifi is tempting.

 

[Matias]

Apollon has 14 days money back guarantee. I would choose one of them, say the NC1200, and try it. If not satisfied, change to the Purifi.

 

[DonH56]

Maggies are an easy, if somewhat low, load. The HF dip is the ribbon tweeter but it's still essentially a resistive load. They are insensitive so need more power than most other speakers. They have been paired with ARC and more recently Bryston but just about any decent amplifier will handle them just fine.

I'd pick the AHB2, just because I want one, but @March Audio or any of the other class D designs should do fine with them.

 

[tensor9]

Yeah, being a nominal 4 Ohm load, they're only 83db/W/m efficient, so they need some juice.

 

[audimus]

My decades of experience with Maggies is that which amp gets the best out of them is not predictable by any specs or any common measurements. What makes a Maggie “sing” is almost voodoo magic. Some amps have it and some amps don’t. That is just the way it is.

Maggies aren’t like your typical speakers with relatively flat response just requiring sufficient power or current capability. They are temperamental beasts that sulk with some amps and open up with others even if both amps have similar specs. They can sound great with some sub $1000 amps and lousy with some $9000 amps.

Most of the time, they are purchased as status products (at least in the past now they are a little passè because of the size in the lifestyle crowd) and so the higher end Maggies tend to be paired with high-end status amps - Aragons, Pass Labs, etc. Wholly unnecessary.

The factory does not recommend Class D amps. Primarily because the early Class D amps didn’t do well when impedance dipped down to 1 ohm and they have not really tested with newer Class D amps.

The bottom line is at this price range, go to a dealer that will allow home auditions or can demo multiple amps with Maggies. When an amp matches the Maggies well, you WILL know it when you hear it. It is that stark of a difference for a good match. You can almost see the cymbals vibrate, the piano keys bounce and the bass strings vibrate when you close your eyes and hear. Not just because of the sound but the imaging which is the main reason to buy these speakers.

Companies like Adcom and B&K used to make amps that seemed like custom made for these speakers across the product line. Any of the Nelson Pass Stasis designs including the Nakamichis with licensed Stasis designs worked very well even when power rating was lower.

Not sure there are any contemporary brands that have a similar across the product line fit. Luckily I have not had to shop for new amps for mine for a long time. Many like Brystons but the reactions are mixed.

If I had to buy now, I would seriously audition Parasound Halo A21s.

Some tips: Avoid any of the mass market brands, not even the Marantz amps. NAD and Cambridge Audio are way too demure for these.

Things to look for - Powerful transformers and equally important - massive cooling capability both passive and active. Otherwise amps can run very hot driving Maggies especially when it begs to increase the volume because they sound so good and will not induce fatigue.

 

[March Audio]

My decades of experience with Maggies is that which amp gets the best out of them is not predictable by any specs or any common measurements. What makes a Maggie “sing” is almost voodoo magic. Some amps have it and some amps don’t. That is just the way it is.

Maggies aren’t like your typical speakers with relatively flat response just requiring sufficient power or current capability. They are temperamental beasts that sulk with some amps and open up with others even if both amps have similar specs. They can sound great with some sub $1000 amps and lousy with some $9000 amps.

Most of the time, they are purchased as status products (at least in the past now they are a little passè because of the size in the lifestyle crowd) and so the higher end Maggies tend to be paired with high-end status amps - Aragons, Pass Labs, etc. Wholly unnecessary.

The factory does not recommend Class D amps. Primarily because the early Class D amps didn’t do well when impedance dipped down to 1 ohm and they have not really tested with newer Class D amps.

The bottom line is at this price range, go to a dealer that will allow home auditions or can demo multiple amps with Maggies. When an amp matches the Maggies well, you WILL know it when you hear it. It is that stark of a difference for a good match. You can almost see the cymbals vibrate, the piano keys bounce and the bass strings vibrate when you close your eyes and hear. Not just because of the sound but the imaging which is the main reason to buy these speakers.

Companies like Adcom and B&K used to make amps that seemed like custom made for these speakers across the product line. Any of the Nelson Pass Stasis designs including the Nakamichis with licensed Stasis designs worked very well even when power rating was lower.

Not sure there are any contemporary brands that have a similar across the product line fit. Luckily I have not had to shop for new amps for mine for a long time. Many like Brystons but the reactions are mixed.

If I had to buy now, I would seriously audition Parasound Halo A21s.

Some tips: Avoid any of the mass market brands, not even the Marantz amps. NAD and Cambridge Audio are way too demure for these.

Things to look for - Powerful transformers and equally important - massive cooling capability both passive and active. Otherwise amps can run very hot driving Maggies especially when it begs to increase the volume because they sound so good and will not induce fatigue.

I know I have a vested interest here but there is a lot of audiophile mythology which surrounds Maggies, amps in general and of course class D. You have stated most of it above.

Firstly many Maggies arent the pathological load many claim they are.

So we can see here that only real baddie in this selection is the 1.7 which dips below 2 ohms above 15kHz. However there is very little content above 15kHz, it might be 60dB lower than the lower frequencies so this simply is not going to stress an amplifier in the way you think it might.

The phase angles are also pretty benign so they arent going to make the amps dissipate lots of extra power over whats delivered to the speakers. Im of course excluding any amp designs that might go unstable, but thats inherently bad design.

Obviously thats not the entire Maggie range above, but........

I cant speak for all class D, there are good and bad class D as there are any other class, but good class D has no issue whatsoever with these sorts of loads. The Hypex modules will run stable down to 1 ohm and you will find them all rated and tested at 2 ohms. They can supply more current than many A/B designs with the NC1200 delivering up to 40 amps.

Also, I just exhibited at the Melbourne HiFi show and in the room opposite was Magnepans Australian distributor. He was using Nuprime class D amps and very strongly recommended them. He has no issue at all with class D and even went so far as saying it was the best match for them.
The sound in that room was probably the most enjoyable at the show.

There is *nothing* voodoo or magic about this.

 

[tensor9]

As a point of reference, the amp will be replacing a pair of PS Audio M700s, which use ICE 700ASC modules, 700 W into 4 Ohm, and not really rated for 2 Ohm.

 

[Ron Texas]

Crown drive core. Tons of power, stable into 2 ohms, cheap. Don't let the 76 db SINAD scare you. Get one at Guitar center and take it back if you don't like it.

 

[audimus]

I know I have a vested interest here but there is a lot of audiophile mythology which surrounds Maggies, amps in general and of course class D. You have stated most of it above.

Firstly many Maggies arent the pathological load many claim they are.

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So we can see here that only real baddie in this selection is the 1.7 which dips below 2 ohms above 15kHz. However there is very little content above 15kHz, it might be 60dB lower than the lower frequencies so this simply is not going to stress an amplifier in the way you think it might.

The phase angles are also pretty benign so they arent going to make the amps dissipate lots of extra power over whats delivered to the speakers. Im of course excluding any amp designs that might go unstable, but thats inherently bad design.

Obviously thats not the entire Maggie range above, but........

I cant speak for all class D, there are good and bad class D as there are any other class, but good class D has no issue whatsoever with these sorts of loads. The Hypex modules will run stable down to 1 ohm and you will find them all rated and tested at 2 ohms. They can supply more current than many A/B designs with the NC1200 delivering up to 40 amps.

Also, I just exhibited at the Melbourne HiFi show and in the room opposite was Magnepans Australian distributor. He was using Nuprime class D amps and very strongly recommended them. He has no issue at all with class D and even went so far as saying it was the best match for them.
The sound in that room was probably the most enjoyable at the show.

There is *nothing* voodoo or magic about this.

My mention of Class D was from the paragraph that is still on the Magnepan site FAQ

A new type of amplifier (Class D) has become more popular because it is a "green" design and uses less power plus it is smaller in size compared to conventional amplifier designs. We have heard reports of class D amplifiers shutting down when driving 4 ohm loads or sound quality that is less-than-desirable. Quite frankly, some sound very poor on Maggies. However, more recent designs of high-end models are much better. Because we do not have the time to determine which models of class D designs are compatible with Maggies, we must take a conservative approach. Direct-coupled, class A/B designs with high current capability have proven a good choice for many decades.

I didn’t say anything more. I misquoted the FAQ to say 1ohm rather than below 4 ohms. I have no experience with Class D amps.

As to the mythology, my post was sort of the anti-thesis to the common myths that Maggies are difficult to drive. I have a different take on why that myth comes about.

The statements that are Maggies are difficult to drive aren’t necessarily true because I have found no correlation with stated specs on power. I have been happy with some 60W amps in the past driving the Maggies.

However, it has been my experience over multiple decades that different amps sound very differently with the Maggies (or in getting the best out of them). Similar experiences are what drives people to conclude that they are difficult to drive typically in attributing it to power capabilities. But, my experience is the opposite in that they are not difficult to drive in terms of power/current capabilities but not all amps sound good with them even when they have same specs. Not knowing the mechanistic/scientific explanation for it is why it gets characterized as voodoo magic in my lingo, not to create some mythology.

From that experience, my only advice in that post is to audition and pick one that sounds best rather than just go by specs or because of some kind of measurement criterion. That isn’t contributing to any mythology and I do not appreciate your insinuation but understand given your conflicted position here.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

So I've temporarily and inadvertently hijacked a couple of threads, so I thought I'd start a new thread to get some input. I'm ampless right now, so I need to order something soon. I'm driving Magnepan 3.7i.

Candidates:
Benchmark AHB2 (190 clean watts in to 4 Ohm, max 29A/channel)
Apollon's Purifi (275 or so clean watts into 4 Ohm, max 25A/channel)
Apollon's Hypex NC1200 (500+ clean watts into 4 Ohm, 38A/channel)
All good with 2 Ohm loads, the NC1200 even more so.

Of course all will supply more power at higher distortion. I would prefer two AHB2s, but I don't really want to pay that much.

What do you think? I'm leaning towards the NC1200 for the power, but the clean Purifi is tempting.

Are you sure this impedance/phase plot is accurate for this model????

Dave.

 

[tensor9]

Are you sure this impedance/phase plot is accurate for this model????

Dave.

Actually, I'm not. It was posted on a forum somewhere. I cannot find a verified curve.

It seems somewhat different than previous models, I agree. But overall, it gets the point across. A non-reactive low impedance load. Is that 2 Ohm dip real? I'm not sure, but the rest of it seems pretty well in line with Maggies.

 

[tensor9]

My mention of Class D was from the paragraph that is still on the Magnepan site FAQ



I didn’t say anything more. I misquoted the FAQ to say 1ohm rather than below 4 ohms. I have no experience with Class D amps.

As to the mythology, my post was sort of the anti-thesis to the common myths that Maggies are difficult to drive. I have a different take on why that myth comes about.

The statements that are Maggies are difficult to drive aren’t necessarily true because I have found no correlation with stated specs on power. I have been happy with some 60W amps in the past driving the Maggies.

However, it has been my experience over multiple decades that different amps sound very differently with the Maggies (or in getting the best out of them). Similar experiences are what drives people to conclude that they are difficult to drive typically in attributing it to power capabilities. But, my experience is the opposite in that they are not difficult to drive in terms of power/current capabilities but not all amps sound good with them even when they have same specs. Not knowing the mechanistic/scientific explanation for it is why it gets characterized as voodoo magic in my lingo, not to create some mythology.

From that experience, my only advice in that post is to audition and pick one that sounds best rather than just go by specs or because of some kind of measurement criterion. That isn’t contributing to any mythology and I do not appreciate your insinuation but understand given your conflicted position here.

I've heard this quite often, and I'm quite curious as to why.

 

[audimus]

I've heard this quite often, and I'm quite curious as to why.

Me too. I am not saying there isn’t a technical explanation for this but rather that it is not a simplistic one of available power/current. I just don’t know what all parameters are involved in the process nor does anyone else that would explain it .. as yet.

 

[Blumlein 88]

As a point of reference, the amp will be replacing a pair of PS Audio M700s, which use ICE 700ASC modules, 700 W into 4 Ohm, and not really rated for 2 Ohm.

Did you use those amps on the Maggies? If so were you unhappy, or just looking for an upgrade?

Maggies aren't beasts to drive, but not easy. Old ones were nearly purely resistive. Newer ones are except at the crossover, and some portion of the range of the ribbons. Still low phase angles. Any decent amp should work.

I sold some to a friend with a JVC receiver back when. This particular JVC had higher than usual current output and was rated for 4 ohms. My friend expected to replace the receiver. But it drove them very well. After a year he switched to some Adcom 545's, but other than a bit more juice, the sound wasn't really better or different.

I'd say any of those on your list would be just fine with them. If you aren't going Benchmark, I'd probably try the Purifi.

 

[March Audio]

My mention of Class D was from the paragraph that is still on the Magnepan site FAQ



I didn’t say anything more. I misquoted the FAQ to say 1ohm rather than below 4 ohms. I have no experience with Class D amps.

As to the mythology, my post was sort of the anti-thesis to the common myths that Maggies are difficult to drive. I have a different take on why that myth comes about.

The statements that are Maggies are difficult to drive aren’t necessarily true because I have found no correlation with stated specs on power. I have been happy with some 60W amps in the past driving the Maggies.

However, it has been my experience over multiple decades that different amps sound very differently with the Maggies (or in getting the best out of them). Similar experiences are what drives people to conclude that they are difficult to drive typically in attributing it to power capabilities. But, my experience is the opposite in that they are not difficult to drive in terms of power/current capabilities but not all amps sound good with them even when they have same specs. Not knowing the mechanistic/scientific explanation for it is why it gets characterized as voodoo magic in my lingo, not to create some mythology.

From that experience, my only advice in that post is to audition and pick one that sounds best rather than just go by specs or because of some kind of measurement criterion. That isn’t contributing to any mythology and I do not appreciate your insinuation but understand given your conflicted position here.

With respect your decades of experience will almost certainly be based on sighted uncontrolled comparisons. Whilst not wishing/aiming to characterise you, this description on Maggies is rife and IMO without much evidence to support it. The big unpredictable variable here is peoples subjective opinions.

The other big variable is their room interaction as they are dipoles.

 

[audimus]

Any decent amp should work.

Almost all amps “work” with the Maggies in that you get sound out, the only exceptions being those that shut themselves off for low impedance loads or get very hot at low impedance loads. But, not all of them sound as good or provide the amazing kind of imaging Maggies are capable of. Some of them sound very mediocre and people may blame it on not positioning it correctly as they are very sensitive to position. You only realize what you were missing after you stumbled on something that matched well and then you tear your hair out when you need to replace it because your bar has gone up and you know what they are capable of. This is a blessing and a curse with these speakers.

Until someone does a study to relate what amp characteristics and measurements correlated or explained this, it is a pain to find a replacement without auditioning a lot. And yes, the differences from good matches are big enough to not just file it away as imaginary and foiled by a DBT (although some people have done such tests through its history, not as popular these days, it peaked in the 90s) just like one doesn’t insist on DBT for a claim that room correction improved the sound.

A good match really makes you sit up often and keep saying wow, that piece/instrument sounded so good there and you keep listening for longer without fatigue. Or you turn off the lights and listen to your favorite performance that is recorded well and you feel you have a live performance with the life size artist in front of you with the instruments exactly where it should be. This is what creates a loyal customer base for the Maggies.

To me, that is what searching for a good audio setup should be at the end which encourages you to listen to music more, not just searching for some type of curves or lines and theoretical assurances that what you are hearing is what the source intended whether it grabbed you or not.

Which is why I said in my original post, when you find a good match you will know it because it will be that much different from the rest, not look for some very subtle nuances which are more likely to be imaginary.

Sort of like you are happy for years with some level of wine with minor differences and then you drink something that amazes you and you find it difficult to drink anything less in the future. You need to find something at least as good to drink. Or you drive a better driving car and then ... you don’t know how to find another as good unless you test drive a lot, etc.

Room correction has a similar effect when done right too.

 

[audimus]

With respect your decades of experience will almost certainly be based on sighted uncontrolled comparisons. Whilst not wishing/aiming to characterise you, this description on Maggies is rife and IMO without much evidence to support it. The big unpredictable variable here is peoples subjective opinions.

The other big variable is their room interaction as they are dipoles.

Yeah, I know the standard objectivist talking points when I see it... without wishing/aiming to characterize you.

There were actually a lot of enthusiast meets for these speakers back in the 90s and even DBTs to see which amps made them sound better. B&Ks were clear winners in such things at the time.

You believe what you want to believe from what you know or don’t and I will too. Ok?

 

[March Audio]

Yeah, I know the standard objectivist talking points when I see it... without wishing/aiming to characterize you.

There were actually a lot of enthusiast meets for these speakers back in the 90s and even DBTs to see which amps made them sound better. B&Ks were clear winners in such things at the time.

You believe what you want to believe from what you know or don’t and I will too. Ok?

They are standard because subjective audiophiles keep consistently making the same mistakes and repeat the group think they hear.

Got any descriptions of the test set ups and results from those DBTs?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Deja Vu all over again.

Anybody see a black cat?

 

[audimus]

They are standard because subjective audiophiles keep consistently making the same mistakes and repeat the group think they hear.

Got any descriptions of the test set ups and results from those DBTs?

Internet blogging wasn’t as popular then to archive and be found by Googling. Nor did anyone have their smartphones to tweet and post Instagrams but that doesn’t make them any less credible for those that were there.

It is futile to go down this road here anyway.

My bottom line: Audition widely and buy the one that sounds best to you not swayed by specs or flat lines. If you have a problem with that, then so be it.