Amazon launches lossless high-res music service!

[gvl]

View attachment 34721

2017 iMac 27" 5k running Mojave 10.14.6 into Topping D50s/P50 into JDS Labs Atom

The complaints were ppl couldn't get hires out to their DACs. What sampling rate/bits is shown on the D50s? Windows app is anyaway crippled w/no exclusive mode support.

 

[ripvw]

What sampling rate/bits is shown on the D50s?

The D50S shows 192kHz but that is coming from the Audio Midi Setup settings, not Tidal or Amazon HD. The DAC is showing 192kHz right now and I don't have either Tidal or Amazon running...

 

[gvl]

Basically ppl say they can't bypass OS audio mixer across all clients, on Mac including. What you say is certainly a sign this might be happening in your case too, basically the stream gets altered on the way out to the DAC. This may or may not be audible but less than ideal nevertheless.

 

[Bamyasi]

I was finally able to setup my Fire 7 Tablet (2019) as a network player for the Amazon Music HD service and it works great.

Pros:

• Excellent sound quality (but HD only, see below)
• 16/44.1 unaltered streaming direct to USB DAC (with OTG adapter)
• Gapless playback supported
• Full remote control from Amazon Music app run on your phone or another tablet

Cons:

• No Amazon Ultra HD (Hi-Res) support
• Occasional network connectivity issues, causing slow response/disconnects from remote app
• No Alexa support for music playback

In general, I would say for $30 it does its job wonderfully. Note, when I connect the tablet to the DAC and try playing back tracks in Ultra HD quality they will be indicated as "HD" at the now playing screen in the app and shown as 16/44.1 by the DAC. If I play back same tracks directly on the tablet it shows "Ultra HD" icon but tapping on it reveals the track being resampled to 24/48 kHz. But it does not try to stream in Hi-Res and then resample it in the Android audio stack on the tablet when connected to the USB DAC. Smart enough behavior, I would say. Since I am not that interested in Hi-Res, I find it a useful interim solution. I have software volume set to maximum in Amazon Music app on my phone and on the tablet and using DAC remote to control volume. I assume this gets one as close as it gets to bitperfect streaming, CD quality. At least it sounds great and pretty much indistiguishable from my Allo USBridge, which is 5 times more expensive (but still dirt cheap compared to the likes of Aurender, Naim, etc).

 

[Cahudson42]

I was finally able to setup my Fire 7 Tablet (2019) as a network player for the Amazon Music HD service and it works great.

Pros:

• Excellent sound quality (but HD only, see below)
• 16/44.1 unaltered streaming direct to USB DAC (with OTG adapter)
• Gapless playback supported
• Full remote control from Amazon Music app run on your phone or another tablet

Cons:

• No Amazon Ultra HD (Hi-Res) support
• Occasional network connectivity issues, causing slow response/disconnects from remote app
• No Alexa support for music playback

In general, I would say for $30 it does its job wonderfully. Note, when I connect the tablet to the DAC and try playing back tracks in Ultra HD quality they will be indicated as "HD" at the now playing screen in the app and shown as 16/44.1 by the DAC. If I play back same tracks directly on the tablet it shows "Ultra HD" icon but tapping on it reveals the track being resampled to 24/48 kHz. But it does not try to stream in Hi-Res and then resample it in the Android audio stack on the tablet when connected to the USB DAC. Smart enough behavior, I would say. Since I am not that interested in Hi-Res, I find it a useful interim solution. I have software volume set to maximum in Amazon Music app on my phone and on the tablet and using DAC remote to control volume. I assume this gets one as close as it gets to bitperfect streaming, CD quality. At least it sounds great and pretty much indistiguishable from my Allo USBridge, which is 5 times more expensive (but still dirt cheap compared to the likes of Aurender, Naim, etc).

Could you give us more detail on your specific hardware? The 'OTG adapter', the external DAC, Amp (if any), headphones?

I also got one of these for the same purpose, and have been spectacularly unsuccessful in getting it to work USB with es100, BTR3, Apple dongle - anything.

Currently using it via it's 3.5mm/internal DAC to a Liquid Spark and HE400i. Mostly classical music. Ultra tracks often show as 24/96, with 'hardware capability 24/48' and streaming quality also 24/48. No idea if this is correct. Both LS and F7 volume usually maxxed out or just slightly less. Doesn't sound bad - but I wonder how much the internal DAC is the performance limiting factor...

Thanks!

 

[Bamyasi]

Could you give us more detail on your specific hardware? The 'OTG adapter', the external DAC, Amp (if any), headphones?

Sure, I just thought it should work with any generic hardware but I could be wrong. Here is mine:

Micro USB Host OTG Adapter Cable for Amazon Kindle Fire
Matrix Audio X-SABRE PRO (MQA) DAC
Apollon Audio NC800 SL Stereo Amplifier

I have also tried the same OTG cable with my Topping DX3 Pro (v1) and it seems to work equally well. Including the smart selection of the lowest common denominator sampling frequency for the source track algorithm. I have also tried using either Amazon Music app run directly on the tablet (Version 16.2.3 OTA) or streaming from Amazon Music app on my Samsung Galaxy S10e phone (Version 16.2.4 OTA). Both worked essentially the same way. Ironically, Android phones support streaming to Amazon devices while Amazon tablets do not.

Note, one important thing to make it work is to check that your Amazon tablet has all the recent OTA updates applied. Go to Settings->Device Options->System Updates, click on the CHECK NOW button and then manually click through each of the updates to apply them right away. Then restart your tablet. Otherwise updates may sit there for several days before actually taking effect.

I also found that if you start the Amazon Music app on the tablet first and then connect its USB port to the DAC the program GUI sometimes hangs or gets unresponsive. Just restart your tablet and it should fix it. Overall, Amazon Music app certainly does not feel like the most stable piece of software yet but I guess one can excuse some teething problems. Hopefully, it will improve with time.

I also got one of these for the same purpose, and have been spectacularly unsuccessful in getting it to work USB with es100, BTR3, Apple dongle - anything. Currently using it via it's 3.5mm/internal DAC to a Liquid Spark and HE400i. Mostly classical music. Ultra tracks often show as 24/96, with 'hardware capability 24/48' and streaming quality also 24/48. No idea if this is correct. Both LS and F7 volume usually maxxed out or just slightly less. Doesn't sound bad - but I wonder how much the internal DAC is the performance limiting factor...
Thanks!

As I said, make sure latest OTA updates were in effect for your tablet. It took mine couple days and several restarts, plus the manual forced update installation trick to finally start making sense.

 

[Dogen]

As far as I know, that only adjusts the volume level of the whole track and doesn't do dynamic compression.

Or does it normalize the whole album, like Spotify and even iTunes & Apple Music does now? Given Amazon’s apparently Pulling tracks from various sources to make an “album” that unfortunately doesn’t sound likely.

I really want to like Amazon HD, but I’ll wait to see if the implement gapless playback, and to see how this normalization question is answered.

 

[Cahudson42]

Sure, I just thought it should work with any generic hardware but I could be wrong. Here is mine:

Micro USB Host OTG Adapter Cable for Amazon Kindle Fire
Matrix Audio X-SABRE PRO (MQA) DAC
Apollon Audio NC800 SL Stereo Amplifier

I have also tried the same OTG cable with my Topping DX3 Pro (v1) and it seems to work equally well. Including the smart selection of the lowest common denominator sampling frequency for the source track algorithm. I have also tried using either Amazon Music app run directly on the tablet (Version 16.2.3 OTA) or streaming from Amazon Music app on my Samsung Galaxy S10e phone (Version 16.2.4 OTA). Both worked essentially the same way. Ironically, Android phones support streaming to Amazon devices while Amazon tablets do not.

Note, one important thing to make it work is to check that your Amazon tablet has all the recent OTA updates applied. Go to Settings->Device Options->System Updates, click on the CHECK NOW button and then manually click through each of the updates to apply them right away. Then restart your tablet. Otherwise updates may sit there for several days before actually taking effect.

I also found that if you start the Amazon Music app on the tablet first and then connect its USB port to the DAC the program GUI sometimes hangs or gets unresponsive. Just restart your tablet and it should fix it. Overall, Amazon Music app certainly does not feel like the most stable piece of software yet but I guess one can excuse some teething problems. Hopefully, it will improve with time.



As I said, make sure latest OTA updates were in effect for your tablet. It took mine couple days and several restarts, plus the manual forced update installation trick to finally start making sense.

​

Thanks, @Bamyasi, very helpful! At this point, I have the Apple dongle (A2049) working with a generic OTG adapter. As input to a Liquid Spark, it drives HE400i phones to just acceptable levels with both the F7 and LS on high gain, full volume. This tracks with the usual low output of the Apple Dongle reported on other threads..(10/1 - while the Apple dongle/LS drives HE400i to what I consider acceptable levels, the combo definitely work better with my more-efficient 101db SHP9500s. On new Abby Road UHD tracks, the LS actually needs to be turned down, and you likely can use the lower gain LS setting. Dynamic range is definitely better on Classical - like a UHD Beethoven 7th. Bass is Fuller - as would be expected from the SHP9500 voice coil vs. HE400i planar. But I do think transparency and sound stage may be a bit less than with HE400i.)

While it sounds good to me, I haven't A/B compared to the internal DAC into the LS via the 3.5mm..

But do notice that UHD tracks, reported natively to be 24/96, play showing 24/48 on the internal DAC, while with the Apple dongle, 'capability' shows 24/44.1, 'playing' as 16/44.1. Can someone explain what is happening here? Is the reporting for the internal DAC correct? If so, I would think the dongle playback would be considered worse, both since it's 16, and means the 16/96 tracks is being resampled to 44.1 (is this correct?

Thanks!
Chris

 

[mkawa]

words can't express how happy this makes me. i just saved 220$ by cancelling my tidal subscription for the year and getting the promo 80$/1yr subscribe for amzn. plus, seamless alexa integration for casual listening on all my echo stuff.

 

[Bamyasi]

But do notice that UHD tracks, reported natively to be 24/96, play showing 24/48 on the internal DAC, while with the Apple dongle, 'capability' shows 24/44.1, 'playing' as 16/44.1. Can someone explain what is happening here? Is the reporting for the internal DAC correct? If so, I would think the dongle playback would be considered worse, both since it's 16, and means the 16/96 tracks is being resampled to 44.1 (is this correct?

No one can tell for sure since Amazon never explained how their SQ selection process works in detail.

However, my take on it is that they should always have at least two different masters as sources for their Ultra HD albums at their disposal -- the original CD-quality (HD) one and then the Ultra HD remaster (sometimes more than one). The algorithm would simply choose to stream original 16/44.1 master when it detects Android device as renderer (including Amazon tablets).

Of course, another explanation would be that they actually always stream in SD quality (MP3 320 kbps) to external DACs, just don't show it. Then the DAC input would always indicate 16/44.1 decoded (lossy) stream, regardless of the device capabilities. This is what happens when I stream to my Chromecast Audio connected to the same DAC via optical input and the playback sound quality is noticeably worse. It is not bad but I can hear typical compression artifacts on pretty much every track. This does not happen with Amazon Fire tablet attached to the same DAC and playing the same track. The quality is different.

Sure, I haven't done any proper ABX testing and I do not have professionally trained ears either, so we might need to ask Amir to help us in this at some point This is just my own personal experience. Also, this behavior may change anytime with the next Amazon app and/or service update. Anyways, YMMV as usual.

 

[StevenEleven]

@Bamyasi , thanks for all of your info. I found a 6th edition 8 inch Amazon Fire tablet (from about 2015-2016) that had fallen out of use in the family. I did two years worth of updates on it last night and up popped Amazon Misic HD. I am streaming from it (rather than to it as I believe you are doing). I am streaming to my Amazon Fire Stick 4k, which is plugged directly into my receiver. Streaming to the Fire Stick 4k from the Fire tablet gives a very nice display on my TV and of course very nice sound.

But I will have to get a couple of those OTGs just out of curiosity.

I found a way to see DAC type info from my receiver display on my TV. My TV says my receiver is getting a 48 kHz stream in a 2.0 Dolby Digital Plus wrapper when I stream from Fire tablet to Fire Stick, as I conceptualize and sort of understand it. As I understand it that may be a format where my receiver can just take the ball and run with it in terms of DSP, surround sound, EQ, etc. Maybe the fire stick “knows” this and so hands off the stream to the receiver in this format. There’s also an option to just send two-channel PCM to the receiver in the Fire Stick 4k settings. I have read that Digital Dolby Plus 2.0 is lossless, IIRC. The receiver also says 24 bit but I don’t know if that applies to the audio or video.

Anyway two huge advantages of the tablet are that it streams gapless while the Amazon Firestick 4k native Amazon Music HD app does not (at least not yet), and the 6th edition Fire tablet makes a fabulous remote compared to the Fire stick remote.

Edit: I am finding that different combinations of sources and DACs support gapless to varying degrees, which are very difficult to predict. For example, gapless via Amazon Music HD from iPad to Apple TV to receiver or iPad to Firestick 4k to receiver is absolutely seemless, and all indicators (I have anyway) show the streams to be lossless.

The 2019 remaster of the Beatles’ Abbey Road on Amazon HD sounds really really nice—I am wondering if it is a new high watermark for sound quality for that album. (The second side of Abbey Road is what I used to verify that the stream from the tablet was gapless.) If I am not mistaken, the streams from Windows, iOS, OS X, Android and Windows are also gapless for me.

For anyone interested, to see screen snips of the results with a 2012 MacBook Pro Retina streaming straight 192 / 24 Ultra HD into my receiver by HDMI see:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-and-amazon-music-hd-on-osx.9174/#post-237135

The receiver confirmed it was getting a 192 kHz stream. So I reached the promised land and decided it wasn’t all that. A 44.1 / 16 lossless stream takes me all the way home.

 

[audimus]

I found a way to see DAC type info from my receiver display on my TV. My TV says my receiver is getting a 48 kHz stream in a 2.0 Dolby Digital Plus wrapper when I stream from Fire tablet to Fire Stick, as I conceptualize and sort of understand it. As I understand it that may be a format where my TV can just take the ball and run with it in terms of DSP, surround sound, EQ, etc. Maybe the fire stick “knows” this and so hands off the stream to the receiver in this format. There’s also an option to just send two-channel PCM to the receiver in the Fire Stick 4k settings. I have read that Digital Dolby Plus 2.0 is lossless, IIRC. The receiver also says 24 bit but I don’t know if that applies to the audio or video.

Think of your Fire Stick as a HTPC with a HDMI soundcard attached to your receiver. It can use the EDID from whatever it is attached to which tells the stick what bit rate and sampling rates it can support. Typically, there are two modes for sending audio over from a HTPC to an AVR or a TV. Bitstream (send encoded multi-channel info as a bitstream) or LPCM (decoded multi-channel PCM stream). Based on the EDID info (or a default), the Stick has decided to send a Dolby Encoded 48 khz 24 bit bitstream (“studio quality”). It should be upsampling the received 16 bit 44.1 flac stream after decoding. Switch to 2 channel PCM and see if you get the same upsampled bit rate and resolution or it just passes through the flac-decoded CD quality PCM stream. Depending on the receiver, there may be a setting change necessary to receive PCM but this is automatic in most modern AVRs. It would be difficult to perceive any difference in sound quality unless the upsampling is noisy.

The tablet itself is not involved in these audio decoding quality decisions other than the app on the tablet picking which URL to direct the Firestick to as a remote manager. Not sure if Amazon Music app will decide which quality content to stream based on sufficient bandwidth to the tablet or this decision is made when the Firestick contacts Amazon with the Url provided by Amazon Music based on the Stick and its bandwidth (typically the same as the tablet if on the same network)

 

[MattHooper]

words can't express how happy this makes me. i just saved 220$ by cancelling my tidal subscription for the year and getting the promo 80$/1yr subscribe for amzn. plus, seamless alexa integration for casual listening on all my echo stuff.

And bye-bye to any "library" of favorites you may have built up in the meantime on Tidal.

This is one reason why streaming can suck for those who actually like having a curated collection, rather than constantly searching streams.
Switch services and your curated collection vanishes.

And even then, I've found Tidal to be pretty crappy in terms of trying to build a collection based on favorites. No granularity at all for organization.

(I know, I know: Roon).

 

[mkawa]

ipad pro 2016 plays ultra hd perfectly with the powered camera/usb adapter. yes, sample rate pops up to 192k on smsl m500.

 

[Berwhale]

Hi, I'm considering moving from a Spotify Family plan to an Amazon Music HD Family plan, however Amazon's use of a "shared payment method" has me worried. Does this mean that any member of the plan would have the ability to purchase music or other items from Amazon using my payment details? (accidentally or otherwise!)

From Amazon's FAQ
What is a "shared payment method"?
A shared payment method is a credit or debit card that one family member agrees to share with each family member on the Family plan. This payment method can be used to purchase items on Amazon. The first time a physical purchase is made on the shared payment method, family members are asked to enter the full card number for verification. Digital purchases do not require this step. After a family member makes a purchase, the subscriber of the Family plan will receive an email listing the items that were purchased on the shared payment method.

 

[Berwhale]

And bye-bye to any "library" of favorites you may have built up in the meantime on Tidal.

This is one reason why streaming can suck for those who actually like having a curated collection, rather than constantly searching streams.
Switch services and your curated collection vanishes.

And even then, I've found Tidal to be pretty crappy in terms of trying to build a collection based on favorites. No granularity at all for organization.

(I know, I know: Roon).

This may help (not tried it myself): https://soundiiz.com/

 

[StevenEleven]

Think of your Fire Stick as a HTPC with a HDMI soundcard attached to your receiver. It can use the EDID from whatever it is attached to which tells the stick what bit rate and sampling rates it can support. Typically, there are two modes for sending audio over from a HTPC to an AVR or a TV. Bitstream (send encoded multi-channel info as a bitstream) or LPCM (decoded multi-channel PCM stream). Based on the EDID info (or a default), the Stick has decided to send a Dolby Encoded 48 khz 24 bit bitstream (“studio quality”). It should be upsampling the received 16 bit 44.1 flac stream after decoding. Switch to 2 channel PCM and see if you get the same upsampled bit rate and resolution or it just passes through the flac-decoded CD quality PCM stream. Depending on the receiver, there may be a setting change necessary to receive PCM but this is automatic in most modern AVRs. It would be difficult to perceive any difference in sound quality unless the upsampling is noisy.

The tablet itself is not involved in these audio decoding quality decisions other than the app on the tablet picking which URL to direct the Firestick to as a remote manager. Not sure if Amazon Music app will decide which quality content to stream based on sufficient bandwidth to the tablet or this decision is made when the Firestick contacts Amazon with the Url provided by Amazon Music based on the Stick and its bandwidth (typically the same as the tablet if on the same network)

Thanks so much. I studied through this and it really helped me conceptualize how things were working. It’s amazing.

If I set the Fire Stick TV 4K to “stereo” instead of “best available” from audio options the receiver tells the TV screen that the receiver is getting a “Multich PCM” 5.1 stream (instead of a Dolby Digital Plus 2.0 stream) from the Fire Stick when I run Amazon Music HD, at 48 khz, 24 bit. I am guessing this is what you meant by LPCM.

Depending on which of several types of digital streams make it to the receiver there is an array of receiver features that become enabled or disabled in different combinations. I would just bore everyone with the details.

 

[Cahudson42]

@Bamyasi and anyone:

I notice when I use casting from my phone to control Amazon Music on the F 7, the F7 changes to a simplified display, and the streaming quality is no longer available from Amazon Music at either the F7 or my phone.

Question is, is the streaming quality on the F7 player exactly the same when playing natively on it, or via casting from another device? My DAC (the $9 Apple dongle) has no display - so I can't tell. Perhaps someone with a DAC display can advise..

Thanks!
Chris

10/2 edit: I got myself a D10 to substitute for the Apple dongle for desktop use. When casting and controlling the F7 from my Moto g6, the D10 display continues to show the same 44.1. So casting apparently does not effect F7 playback. The Moto g6 also allows me to control the volume, as well as track selection, pause, etc. Neat. And with the D10 rather than the Apple driving my Liquid Spark, there is now plenty of 'juice' to drive my HE400i with tons of headroom..

BTW, while the Apple works fine with the simple non-powered OTG cable, the D 10 does not. It operated erratically kicking in and out seemingly randomly - until I switched to a powered OTG cable. Now it's solid.

 

[Icboschert]

Hi, I'm considering moving from a Spotify Family plan to an Amazon Music HD Family plan, however Amazon's use of a "shared payment method" has me worried. Does this mean that any member of the plan would have the ability to purchase music or other items from Amazon using my payment details? (accidentally or otherwise!)

From Amazon's FAQ
What is a "shared payment method"?
A shared payment method is a credit or debit card that one family member agrees to share with each family member on the Family plan. This payment method can be used to purchase items on Amazon. The first time a physical purchase is made on the shared payment method, family members are asked to enter the full card number for verification. Digital purchases do not require this step. After a family member makes a purchase, the subscriber of the Family plan will receive an email listing the items that were purchased on the shared payment method.

This is how the Google Music family account works. I've accidentally purchased things with the family account rather than my personal one. But they usually give me the option to choose the payment method at least.

 

[Midwest Blade]

So listening and comparing Amazon vs Tidal last night on headphones, other than volume levels, I can detect no difference. When I bluetooth Amazon through the Yamaha WXC-50 and listen on speakers I did notice a slight difference in the overall presence, you would not notice this without shifting back and forth. I believe as soon as Yamaha links in the Amazon program for MusicCast and I can stream directly to the WXC-50 I will be cancelling both my Pandora and Tidal accounts.