How far have ss amps really come in the last twenty years??

[BDWoody]

Thanks, Thomas. I think the atmosphere here inspires a good number of regulars to not only have fun here, bring it also out our best when participating in the discussions. ...

In 2012 I moved to a beautiful, cool tropical mountain valley in Panama, and brought along a modest, but excellent audio system with its Teac A-H01 DAC/Amp and a pair of Paradigm Atom v6 monitors. ...

Gotta love those Atoms... That was my first exposure to really excellent sound. I still have them...Actually, my brother has borrowed them, and was surprised at how good they are.

Panama...I have started looking into interesting places to settle in for the next stage, and that continues to seem like a very appealing option. Good for you, I hope you love it every day.

As Gene Simmons said..."Every day above ground is a good day."

Cheers.

 

[Xulonn]

@BigRez - I agree with much of what you are saying. I believe that when pursuing "high fidelity" audio reproduction, the best way to start - within your budget limitations - is with a very accurate source. Add to that an amplifier that is properly matched with respect to input and output impedance, and that can provide sufficient power to drive a given speaker without clipping or other audible distortion. I think most of my fellow experienced audio enthusiasts would agree on those basic requirements.

Subjective elements include design/appearance, identifying as a consumer or fan, with a company and its products, and having an admiration for a product's electrical and mechanical engineering elements. Some people can afford dedicated music or home theater rooms with acoustic elements included the design, but most of us are stuck with what is available in our homes that were not designed for audio or video excellence. At that point - where I am now - there is an opportunity to play with DSP/DRC, modern tools that are evolving, and did not exist a couple of decades ago except as crude attempts at equalization.

 

[SIY]

...I'm simply saying that there ARE things related to sound quality that can not current be measured and there always will be these intangibles "phenomenon". It's why some pairings of speakers, amps and placements just don't work well and others are magical. Is there a way to measure and correct for a very cold room vs a very warm room? Yes, bit it's not very practical. What if the speakers are still warm but the room is now cold because someone opened the door. What about a new piece of furniture? What if I move that furniture closer to the speaker or throw a pillow on it? Do I measure again if there are a lot of people in the room? Are these things that can and should measure constantly or are they possibly phenomenon that we don't have a good way to measure and adjust for constantly? I could probably come up with a good list of technical things that are hard to measure as well. I feel like impedance is a pretty complicated one that's hard to measure because it's different at different frequencies. It can be measured but do we really know everything those measurements mean to sound quality or could there be some phenomenon in there that our understanding of measurements doesn't cover? I bet there will be a better way to measure impedance in the future to gain further knowledge of sound quality. If you still believe there are no auditory phenomena that can not be easily measured, that's cool.

Can you give one or two examples where sonic differences were demonstrated but not readily measurable? I'm not even aware of a single one.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Can you give one or two examples where sonic differences were demonstrated but not readily measurable? I'm not even aware of a single one.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...particular-speaker-dynamics.7742/#post-183006

 

[SIY]

Cgcvc


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...particular-speaker-dynamics.7742/#post-183006

Demonstrated differences, not handwaving in an interview for PR.

edit for clarity: I.e., "Here's a dynamic sounding speaker, here's one that doesn't sound dynamic, and we can find no measured differences between them."

 

[Xulonn]

Panama...I have started looking into interesting places to settle in for the next stage, and that continues to seem like a very appealing option. Good for you, I hope you love it every day.

The only negative is that I have to look at this every time I drive the 4Km into town.

 

[digicidal]

The only negative is that I have to look at this every time I drive the 4Km into town.

If that's the negative... I'd love to know what a positive looks like!

 

[BDWoody]

The only negative is that I have to look at this every time I drive the 4Km into town.

View attachment 29204

That's fantastic... I am assuming that's the town we're looking at?

 

[Xulonn]

That's fantastic... I am assuming that's the town we're looking at?

Yes - search for Boquete, Panama in Google images. 3,200' elevation and a nearly perfect climate with no A/C or heating needed. There are at least 7,000 expats in the region, with a majority being American, but lots of Europeans as well. In addition to Panamanian friends, I have friends here from Canada, England, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, South Africa, Turkey, Jordan, Venezuela, Peru, Colombia, Barbados, the Cayman Islands, Jamaica and more.

Plus, as hobbyist artisan woodturner who sells at the local Tuesday market in this tourist town, I talk to tourists from around the world every week.

With fairly reliable high-speed internet (80Mbps) - streaming and downloading audio and video is no problem.

As we say in Español, "¡La vida es buena!" (Please don't reply in Spanish - because I have not yet mastered the language.)

 

[digicidal]

As someone surrounded on all sides by miles of beige desert (where A/C is mandatory)... I'm very jealous.
You make a great 'pitch-man' for Boquete, they should pay you.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Demonstrated differences, not handwaving in an interview for PR.

edit for clarity: I.e., "Here's a dynamic sounding speaker, here's one that doesn't sound dynamic, and we can find no measured differences between them."

You seem to propose that Klaus Heinz is a sort of quack who invents phenomenons to sell speakers.

Still, esteemed ASR members found the interview worthwhile.

And several AES papers have been written about «punch», as I documented in this thread:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/punch-how-do-we-define-it.7900/

I also quoted another JAES paper written by a Danish team:

«Loudspeaker specifications have traditionally described the physical properties and characteristics of loudspeakers: frequency response, dimensions and volume of the cabinet, diameter of drivers, impedance, total harmonic distortion, sensitivity, etc. Few of these directly describe the sound reproduction and none directly describe perception of the reproduction, i.e., takes into account that the human auditory system is highly non-linear in terms of spectral-, temporal-, and sound level processing (see, e.g., [3]). This disconnect between specifications and perception have made it challenging for acousticians and engineers (and consumers) to predict how a loudspeaker will sound on the basis of these specifications».

So you seem to be not in the know of what audio interested people discuss, professionals, academics and audiophiles alike.

Even if you can’t precisely define a term, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And as I showed, there are several AES papers that discuss and try to define the term «punch»/«dynamics» more meaningfully.

 

[BDWoody]

Yes - search for Boquete, Panama in Google images. 3,200' elevation and a nearly perfect climate with no A/C or heating needed. There are at least 7,000 expats in the region, with a majority being American, but lots of Europeans as well. In addition to Panamanian friends, I have friends here from Canada, England, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, South Africa, Turkey, Jordan, Venezuela, Peru, Colombia, Barbados, the Cayman Islands, Jamaica and more.

Plus, as hobbyist artisan woodturner who sells at the local Tuesday market in this tourist town, I talk to tourists from around the world every week.

With fairly reliable high-speed internet (80Mbps) - streaming and downloading audio and video is no problem.

As we say in Español, "¡La vida es buena!" (Please don't reply in Spanish - because I have not yet mastered the language.)

My next question was regarding internet access... Sounds like you don't have a lot of regrets.
Very, very nice.

 

[SIY]

You seem to propose that Klaus Heinz is a sort of quack who invents phenomenons to sell speakers.

Nonsense, I said no such thing. But I repeat, demonstrated audible difference where there's no straightforward measureable difference.

Got one?

 

[digicidal]

Nonsense, I said no such thing. But I repeat, demonstrated audible difference where there's no straightforward measureable difference.

While I don't believe there is one - even if you emphasize 'straightforward' a little more... I didn't interpret his (Heinz) statements as saying that was the case either. I interpreted it more as "while measurable in some form, I have yet to determine which measurements reliably correlate to certain subjective values".

Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines however.

Or taken another way: The exceptions lie in the compromises necessary in speaker design. However, if we imagine the impossible and assume there is a speaker that measures 'perfectly' in every possible metric - and in every listening environment - only then would measurements alone be adequate. In all other cases, we measure to eliminate obvious errors - and subjectively evaluate which necessary compromises are least harmful (or most saleable in Heinz case).

 

[svart-hvitt]

Nonsense, I said no such thing. But I repeat, demonstrated audible difference where there's no straightforward measureable difference.

Got one?

You seem to miss the point.

Many ASR members enjoyed the topic and the discussion. Heinz himself said in the interview he cannot present measurements and says the topic should be followed up by academics, claiming having been in contact with Uni Berlin.

Reading the AES papers would tell you that it’s difficult to measure all that is perceived by people. Still, researchers try and come up with definitions of adjectives like dynamic and punchy to measure what was previously not measurable.

 

[digicidal]

Reading the AES papers would tell you that it’s difficult to measure all that is perceived by people. Still, researchers try and come up with definitions of adjectives like dynamic and punchy to measure what was previously not measurable.

I think @SIY is arguing the opposite - which your statement actually supports, not contradicts. In other words, if the assumption was that there are things which can be heard but can't be measured... there wouldn't be any reason for the 'researchers trying'. There is research into increasing the means of measurement because the belief is that everything that can be heard can also be measured.

The problem is that not every subjective 'keyword' directly correlates to a singular measurement metric... or for that matter is even describing the same thing at all. The evaluation isn't all that's subjective... word choice itself is as well. Even where measurable effects are known to correlate... the subjective descriptions for that metric will still vary somewhat depending on who is 'translating' them.

 

[SIY]

The problem is that not every subjective 'keyword' directly correlates to a singular measurement metric... or for that matter is even describing the same thing at all. The evaluation isn't all that's subjective... word choice itself is as well. Even where measurable effects are known to correlate... the subjective descriptions for that metric will still vary somewhat depending on who is 'translating' them.

This is very much the point- if you take a loose term where there's no general agreement on what it means ("dynamic" "punchy" "tubey") and try to correlate it to a measurement or set of measurements, you have a tough row to hoe. But nonetheless, if you do a valid listening comparison of one audio device to another, are able do demonstrate that the differences can be heard, and where your ears-only distinction is that one speaker is (fill in the blank with whatever fuzzy term), their measurements WILL be different. In no case I'm aware of will two devices sound different in a valid listening test but not have readily measurable differences.

Nor has anyone provided such an example.

 

[Sal1950]

The only negative is that I have to look at this every time I drive the 4Km into town.

I can't see a single fast food restaurant? Where do you eat?

 

[watchnerd]

What does it mean if I'm willing to pay extra $$$ for something that looks cool, because I know when I listen sighted (all the time) I know I'll like it better than something that is ugly or boring....even if I know blinded, I probably couldn't tell the difference?

 

[Sal1950]

The problem is that not every subjective 'keyword' directly correlates to a singular measurement metric... or for that matter is even describing the same thing at all.

It very rarely is or has ever been. More often it's a combination of a number of measurable qualities that add together and become a particular sound of a complicated transducer like a speaker. People often throw out imaging/soundstaging as a example of a immeasurable quality. Far from the truth, its just extremely difficult to measure in real time and will often be the result of the combination of a few different aspects of the speakers performance.