Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Deleted member 21219]

I enjoy his videos and believe that he believes what he is saying.

To be a successful scam artist, you need to allay people's fears, to put them at ease, and to build their confidence in whatever scam you're running. That's why they call it a "con game"; that stands for "confidence game".

The greatest weapon of the con man is his/her personality. Your defense against that is simple; look at the facts - the data, the science - and you'll be able to see reality without the curtain of b.s. upon which the scam artist depends.

Jim

 

[Brian Hall]

Paul McGowan has to be one of the most over-respected, over-cited 'bad gurus' currently going the rounds.

Is that clear enough? Because nothing in the above sentence is in any way exaggerated. And it's hard for people who are in thrall to 'get it'.

McGowan is a myth-maker.

He is a typical example of someone who knows his electronics but has no idea how to conduct a listening test in a way that controls the variables, or why one should do that.

Luckily for him, the things he makes are things he can design and build to perform stunningly well purely from theory and good manufacturing practice.

What he does next is unfortunate: poor listening test conditions, and a lack of understanding of what is going on in his listening tests, leads him to think he is hearing changes in sound waves when he isn't. (Details on how that happens lie scattered over many threads in ASR.) He then misattributes internally-generated perceptions to the sound waves and hence to whatever he changed in the product. He then puts that in his products and tells everybody how remarkable the improvement is.

The net result is Bad Guru Syndrome: a lovely and engaging guy, with great technical design knowledge, an engaging blog, and 'audio discoveries that even he cannot explain', built into his products, all with complete sincerity. What's not to like? Well -- there's these myths he made.

He supposedly thinks an expensive streamer or CD transport will sound better than a less expensive version that is working correctly. That is when I knew he was full of BS. Just like anyone selling a > $1000 dac or streamer. Ripping off people who don't know any better and believe what the avuncular salesman tells them.

 

[ahofer]

To be a successful scam artist, you need to allay people's fears, to put them at ease, and to build their confidence in whatever scam you're running. That's why they call it a "con game"; that stands for "confidence game".

The greatest weapon of the con man is his/her personality. Your defense against that is simple; look at the facts - the data, the science - and you'll be able to see reality without the curtain of b.s. upon which the scam artist depends.

Jim

Indeed. I can't imagine he believes what he is saying.

 

[Killingbeans]

I would not lump him with the golden ear crazies, though still a bit crazy. He has very expensive equipment to sell.

The Noise Harvester is "only" $99, and the PowerPort Classic is a "measly" $49. Expensive for a bit of placebo, but peanuts in the world of high-end.

Those kind of products put PS Audio firmly in the golden ear nutcase camp, if you ask me

 

[markalot63]

Haha, I've got a video of his on right now, talking about galvanic isolation. That's entertainment! Then softly he says thanks, bye. I won't argue with the con man act, or is it just a salesman? Sorry, getting off topic. The sales job is it makes a difference, but it's also a real thing that exists.

 

[markalot63]

The Noise Harvester is "only" $99, and the PowerPort Classic is a "measly" $49. Expencive for a bit of placebo, but peanuts in the world of high-end.

Those kind of products put PS Audio firmly in the golden ear nutcase camp, if you ask me

I take back everything I said. Full nutcase.

 

[rdenney]

"Trust your ears"

Said many times in this thread (several times by me): This is the one thing those who distrust measurements or controlled testing won't do. They don't simply trust their ears. Their eyes provide easily as much information to their evaluation as do their ears. The point of properly controlled subjective testing (which is the point of blind and double-blind testing) is to really, really, really trust only one's ears. And in the face of that sort of testing, most of the claims evaporate. Funny that.

It is possible to be trained to detect subtle defects in the sound, but doing so requires specialized techniques and often signals unrelated to music. Invariably, the stuff that people can distinguish by hearing reliably in controlled testing can be readily measured. Arguments against that are justified based on hearing qualifications, rather than on controlled testing. That is a logical fallacy, appeal to credentials. Victims of that are revealing considerable credulousness.

Rick "needs to be repeated about once a week" Denney

 

[rdenney]

Newbie here at 60 getting back into the hobby, long long thread and I have not read all the posts. My answer to the post title is measurements AND numerous subjective listening tests. If these subjective tests all tend to find the same thing then maybe there's an unmeasured problem somewhere, but I'm pretty certain that problem CAN be measured.

There is nothing wrong with subjective testing. The problem is uncontrolled subjective testing.

The ethos of this forum does not have a boundary between subjective and objective; its boundary is between uncontrolled assertions without data and controlled testing and measurements that conform to general scientific principles.

If a person detects an unexpected (based on engineering) difference by simple hearing, the burden is on them to demonstrate that their detection is not the product of chance, bias, or faulty test conditions. That takes some effort, and the proper way to approach those conditions is with the assumption that the commonly accepted engineering expectations are correct.

If a person detects no difference even when one is expected, there is nothing for them to have to prove at all. If they can't detect it, for them it isn't there. But if they do think they detect an unexpected difference, the accusation that others can't hear well enough it is unevidenced.

Again, nothing wrong with using one's ears, but make sure it's really the ears and not the biases resulting from what one sees or some fault in the test conditions. The lure of expensive equipment is a powerful persuader, even to those with training, if one has never conducted such testing.

(The engineers who make things people seem to admire use the same engineering principles in design that some reviewers reject as being unable to evaluate the result. Do you see the insanity of that dichotomy? It means the rock-star designers must resort to metaphysics or inefficient guess-and-trial methodologies, and that's not what engineers are for.)

Rick "has said this before, too" Denney

 

[krabapple]

I enjoy his videos and believe that he believes what he is saying. lol, how's that for evasive. Regardless, there are things to be learned from what he says, even if some of the parts should not be worried about. If you pay $5000 for a single piece of audio equipment then I believe the 'experience' more than measurements, so he's right there.

I would not lump him with the golden ear crazies, though still a bit crazy. He has very expensive equipment to sell.

I would.

You're new on ASR so probably don't know how often his nonsense has been called out here. Mainly because people keep posting links to his shoddy video arguments. It would improve the signal-to-noise ratio here if people would stop posting those links.

 

[markalot63]

I would.

You're new on ASR so probably don't know how often his nonsense has been called out here. Mainly because people keep posting links to his shoddy video arguments. It would improve the signal-to-noise ratio here if people would stop posting those links.

Yea, I had no idea they sold so much crazy crap because I could care less they exist. In a span of 24 hours I can no longer watch any of his videos. Anyone selling outlets and light boxes cannot be taken seriously. Call those gadgets disqualifiers.

 

[allmanfan]

I have a suggestion ,perhaps go to a hifi store that carries high end equipment and perhaps ask them to set up a topping amp with TOTL speakers and compare what you hear to high priced TOTL amp....or perhaps an expensive DAC to a budget DAC and give a listen...you might be surprised...same with the 50 dollar IEM spoken of or the several thousand dollar IEM's on the market...I am not suggesting people spend a ton of money or even that it matters to most people but to those who consider audio a hobby and who strive for the best it does matter.. there is more to music than measurements....there is so much that you hear and experience that cannot be measured and mocking those that seek better at a large cost is silly....I am not criticizing those who do not want to spend a lot of money or who think the improvements as you move up the latter are not worth the expense but universally mocking those who spend more for equipment seems unseemly...there are speakers that sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars and some for a couple of hundred..it may not be worth the expenditure but the expensive speakers are indeed better...I myself have several lower cost amps and DAC's as well as higher priced..I can say without doubt the more expensive are better...again, there are diminishing returns for sure and I am not saying the 30k product is better than the 20k by virtue of price but unless something is very wrong the 30k product will be better than the 200 dollar product even if the 200 dollar one measures better etc

 

[Steve Dallas]

I have a suggestion ,perhaps go to a hifi store that carries high end equipment and perhaps ask them to set up a topping amp with TOTL speakers and compare what you hear to high priced TOTL amp....or perhaps an expensive DAC to a budget DAC and give a listen...you might be surprised...same with the 50 dollar IEM spoken of or the several thousand dollar IEM's on the market...I am not suggesting people spend a ton of money or even that it matters to most people but to those who consider audio a hobby and who strive for the best it does matter.. there is more to music than measurements....there is so much that you hear and experience that cannot be measured and mocking those that seek better at a large cost is silly....I am not criticizing those who do not want to spend a lot of money or who think the improvements as you move up the latter are not worth the expense but universally mocking those who spend more for equipment seems unseemly...there are speakers that sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars and some for a couple of hundred..it may not be worth the expenditure but the expensive speakers are indeed better...I myself have several lower cost amps and DAC's as well as higher priced..I can say without doubt the more expensive are better...again, there are diminishing returns for sure and I am not saying the 30k product is better than the 20k by virtue of price but unless something is very wrong the 30k product will be better than the 200 dollar product even if the 200 dollar one measures better etc

What makes you think we have not done that?

 

[allmanfan]

What makes you think we have not done that?

I am not looking for a fight or to insult anyone but when I read people suggesting a 50 dollar IEM is as good as it gets or that a 200 dollar amp or DAC is as good as is possible I simply find it kind of silly...again I do not want to fight with anyone nor to insult anyone..I actually own a topping amp and inexpensive portable DAC's and I own inexpensive IEM's I use in the gym..I also own more expensive gear and there is no comparison...I am not speaking of measurements which seem to be the holy grail to some ...I speak of what things sound like etc...

 

[olieb]

I also own more expensive gear and there is no comparison.

So the other gear is incomparably better because more money is asked for it?
How come the price tag decides the sound quality?

 

[allmanfan]

I did not suggest that price tag means it is better when the comparison is say between a 1000 and 2000 dollar item I am however suggesting that a 3000 dollar IEM all things being equal will be better than a 50 IEM..a 20k headphone amp will be better than a 200 dollar amp no matter the measurements....a 50k speaker system will be better than a 200 dollar speaker system etc...the title of this thread says why would anyone buy expensive gear when we all know the cheap stuff is just as good...it isnt on balance

 

[Triliza]

I have a suggestion ,perhaps go to a hifi store that carries high end equipment and perhaps ask them to set up a topping amp with TOTL speakers and compare what you hear to high priced TOTL amp....or perhaps an expensive DAC to a budget DAC and give a listen...you might be surprised...same with the 50 dollar IEM spoken of or the several thousand dollar IEM's on the market...I am not suggesting people spend a ton of money or even that it matters to most people but to those who consider audio a hobby and who strive for the best it does matter.. there is more to music than measurements....there is so much that you hear and experience that cannot be measured and mocking those that seek better at a large cost is silly....I am not criticizing those who do not want to spend a lot of money or who think the improvements as you move up the latter are not worth the expense but universally mocking those who spend more for equipment seems unseemly...there are speakers that sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars and some for a couple of hundred..it may not be worth the expenditure but the expensive speakers are indeed better...I myself have several lower cost amps and DAC's as well as higher priced..I can say without doubt the more expensive are better...again, there are diminishing returns for sure and I am not saying the 30k product is better than the 20k by virtue of price but unless something is very wrong the 30k product will be better than the 200 dollar product even if the 200 dollar one measures better etc

If measurements are not to be trusted, and I'm being non-judgemental here, the only way to have a meaningful conversation is to rely on blind tests to prove one's point of view. As far as I am aware, the majority of such tests (for the electronics) don't exactly favor what you are saying above, if specs are met. Can you tell a difference between a 8 dollar dongle and a 5000 dollar dac? Depending on the context, you may as well not be able to.

Nothing wrong with questioning what is taken as granted in this forum, actually it's a healthy thing, but we need to back up our view with some sort of evidence.

 

[Newman]

In a span of 24 hours I can no longer watch any of his videos.

Again, "welcome to ASR". You'll feel right at home here.

 

[antcollinet]

I did not suggest that price tag means it is better when the comparison is say between a 1000 and 2000 dollar item I am however suggesting that a 3000 dollar IEM all things being equal will be better than a 50 IEM..a 20k headphone amp will be better than a 200 dollar amp no matter the measurements....a 50k speaker system will be better than a 200 dollar speaker system etc...the title of this thread says why would anyone buy expensive gear when we all know the cheap stuff is just as good...it isnt on balance

By "on balance" do you mean "on average" If so, no argument. There is an awful lot of cheap crap which is probably enough to outweigh the expensive crap.

If by "on balance" you mean that an expensive device will always - on balance - be better than a cheap one. Then it depends:

If you are talking build quality, aesthetics, look and feel - it will trend in that direction. However, if you are talking about sound quality, then you are fundamentally wrong.

There is enough stuff tested here at at multi K (or even multi 10K prices) that are objectively poor compared with entry level stuff from topping.

I can build a streamer from a Raspberry pi SBC for around £40 complete - feeding an external DAC that will objectively be audibly just as good as any other streamer at any price...

Including - for example - this 20K monstrosity

Pink Faun 2.16x music streamer

My, how we've grown! The experience that convinced me of the inevitability of streaming was in 2010 with the tiny, tidy Logitech Squeezebox Touch that, despite being discontinued and disowned by its manufacturer, still has a cult-like following. Since then, we have seen an explosion of devices...

www.stereophile.com

Similarly from an audio quality point of view, many of the $100 to $500 dacs from Topping cannot be beaten at any price by any manufacturer.

And so on.

 

[BDWoody]

I have a suggestion ,perhaps go to a hifi store that carries high end equipment and perhaps ask them to set up a topping amp with TOTL speakers and compare what you hear to high priced TOTL amp....or perhaps an expensive DAC to a budget DAC and give a listen...you might be surprised...

Good luck finding a hifi store that would actually set up a valid test. It isn't in their best interest to show the emperor has no clothes after all.

So far, no one on the planet has provided actual evidence of what you are claiming.

there is more to music than measurements....there is so much that you hear and experience that cannot be measured

If you can provide evidence that you can consistently identify something that doesn't show up in measurements (by using your ears, not including your eyes or through other clues, i.e. controlled testing), you would be the first ever.

there are speakers that sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars and some for a couple of hundred..it may not be worth the expenditure but the expensive speakers are indeed better...

Speakers and transducers in general are much harder to fully characterise, and good luck finding a cheap speaker that can do a flat 20-20kHz at 120dB at <1%THD. High SPL and low extension are where money typically goes with speakers.

.I myself have several lower cost amps and DAC's as well as higher priced..I can say without doubt the more expensive are better.

It may be that you've had bad luck buying crap or improperly chosen gear, but it's more likely that your comparisons were done in a way that basically guarantees you'd feel that way.

unless something is very wrong the 30k product will be better than the 200 dollar product even if the 200 dollar one measures better etc

.a 20k headphone amp will be better than a 200 dollar..

I am not speaking of measurements which seem to be the holy grail to some ...I speak of what things sound like etc...

How well do you understand the measurements done? This is the fallacy the high end world counts on people literally buying into.

 

[OnLyTNT]

Try this one on for size:

The Unmeasurable Aspects of High-End Audio

In our world of high-end audio, we often find ourselves tangled in the web of specifications, measurements, and tangible data. As a self-admitted crazy audiophile and a 50-year veteran in designing audio equipment, I've always believed that while numbers and graphs are crucial, they don't tell...

www.psaudio.com

I'm sorry but I have to ask: why is there a child photo on that page ? What's the point?