Steve Guttenberg on active speakers

[andreasmaaan]

By contrast, here's a similar plot from a pair of inexpensive two ways that are well-engineered, quite neutrally balanced, and not terribly critical regarding placement.

View attachment 27929

Nice. Is that +/-15 deg horizontal or vertical?

 

[SIY]

Nice. Is that +/-15 deg horizontal or vertical?

As the title on top of the graph says... vertical. Horizontal holds almost perfectly to 30 degrees, then the treble progressively rolls off smoothly at greater angles, textbook performance.

 

[andreasmaaan]

As the title on top of the graph says... vertical. Horizontal holds almost perfectly to 30 degrees, then the treble progressively rolls off smoothly at greater angles, textbook performance.

Very good pls post when the measurements are published?

 

[SIY]

Sure. Should be next month's AudioXpress. You DO subscribe, right?

 

[Soniclife]

I have several sets of excellent small speakers on hand; my wife looks at them, looks at my main speakers, looks at me, and keeps asking, "Ummmm... why?"

It's there a good answer to that, beyond things like you already own them? Or asked the other way around, would the little ones stick around for decades as your main speakers?

 

[SIY]

It's there a good answer to that, beyond things like you already own them? Or asked the other way around, would the little ones stick around for decades as your main speakers?

Hah, you have never dealt with my wife. There ARE no good answers!

I would be mostly happy with the little guys and have used one pair for the TV, a different pair for my mastering area, and have the third pair set up for listening (they're still in review, but my wife has already made her vote). My big ones go almost two octaves deeper, play louder, have a tighter and cleaner bass, and give me an impression of a subjective quality I would call "refinement," though admittedly it's not something I've done a blind test on.

All three of the small speakers here are significantly better than small speakers I've owned in the past (LS3/5A, Harbeth, EPI, Advent, NHT Super Zero...).

 

[andreasmaaan]

Sure. Should be next month's AudioXpress. You DO subscribe, right?

Do I seem or someone who subscribes to audioxpress? (I am ofc lol)

 

[monkeyboy]

Something like the Goldenear Triton seems to have a good mix, class D for the subs and you provide a modest amp for the mids and highs. They seem to be a good value proposition since you don't need dual 500W mono-blocks to power the subs....I plan on dropping on a set of Triton 2+s at some point, when I can find a place to hide them from my wife...

 

[napilopez]

The fact that the R3 and the Duo seem to have similar bass response in-room suggests to me that the anechoic -3dB point of the Duo is in fact similar to that of the R3, which in turn is similar to the passive B&W you mentioned.

But of course, it would be completely inexplicable if it weren’t so. A 6.5” woofer just can’t do even moderate SPLs at 25Hz, especially not in a small-ish sealed box. Add some room gain and then of course you have some audible (and measurable) sound down there

OTOH, it’s hard to deduce too much about bass extension from in-room responses, as the room is so dominant at these frequencies.

I'm confused @andreasmaaan, but I'm here to learn .

I don't know what the real -3dB point is and I get that the room gain makes it hard to compare "true" bass response, but every speaker measured in the same position will suffer from room gain. Among the speakers I've measured here, the Duo has demonstrated the best extension in repeated tests, which I figured was a function of the active design.

I also wouldn't call the Duo similar to the R3 in the bass - the former has significantly more energy into the 20s. It also has more energy into the low 20s than the Focal Kanta No 3. Here are the three speakers roughly overlapped: Duo in blue, Kanta in red, R3 in white.

In practice, the Duo sound like something is happening at 25hz. I get little of this with the R3 (which is nonetheless my preferred speaker). A lot of the music I listen to has ample sub-bass content and I believe the difference in bass extension between the two speakers would be obvious to the lay listener at typical listening levels.

Anyway, I think we've strayed a bit I just brought up the Duo because it's the only speaker its size I've heard with extension that low other than when I briefly tried the Devialet phantoms at my old place, but that's a whole 'nother story.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I'm confused @andreasmaaan, but I'm here to learn .

I don't know what the real -3dB point is and I get that the room gain makes it hard to compare anechoic responses, but every speaker measured in the same position will suffer from room gain too. Among the speakers I've measured here, the Duo has demonstrated the best extension in repeated measurements.

I also wouldn't call the Duo similar to the R3 in the bass - the former has significantly more energy into the 20s. It also has more energy into the low 20s than the Focal Kanta No 3. Here are the three speakers roughly overlapped: Duo in blue, Kanta in red, R3 in white.

View attachment 27941

In practice, the Duo sound like something is happening at 25hz. I get little of this with the R3 (which is nonetheless my preferred speaker). A lot of the music I listen to has ample sub-bass content and I believe the difference in bass extension between the two speakers would be obvious to the lay listener at typical listening levels.

Anyway, I think we've strayed a bit I just brought up the Duo because it's the only speaker it's size I've heard with extension that low, other than when I briefly had the Devialet phantoms at my old place.

I see now! Sorry. Looking at the first graph you posted, the Duo appeared to have similar extension to the R3. I see now that it achieves an additional 15-ish Hz.

What I stand by are my comments about the SPLs at which it might be capable of that extension. The size of the midwoofer will, as a I mentioned before, limit the Duo's output at 25Hz to somewhere in the vicinity of 75dB (anechoic) in a sealed box. The fact that it seems able to do this at moderate SPLs (90dB @ 25Hz in-room might translate to e.g. 70db per speaker @ 1m anechoically) and then pull back on bass extension at higher SPLs - and that this translates to your ears as increased bass extension and not strain/distortion - suggests that the DSP implementation is well-done.

Anyway, I didn't want to get off topic either, and I acknowledge that DSP can extend bass response at modest SPLs at the cost of increased distortion. I just wanted to point out that ultimately, there is a bass extension/SPL/distortion matrix that is 99% a question of mechanics (driver and box) - but we've already agreed on that

 

[hvbias]

I would love to see Steve do a blind "behind curtains" test of say Dutch and Dutch 8c and whatever bookshelf speakers he is using. I would like to think he is the type of person that would come out and say he was wrong if he did like the 8c more in a blind test. He never rubbed me as one of those staunch old school nose in the air audiophiles, but instead someone that wanted more people (including young people) to experience good sound even if he did have some dogmatic viewpoints.

 

[GrimSurfer]

there is a bass extension/SPL/distortion matrix that is 99% a question of mechanics (driver and box)

That is the real issue. No question.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I'm confused @andreasmaaan, but I'm here to learn .

I don't know what the real -3dB point is and I get that the room gain makes it hard to compare "true" bass response, but every speaker measured in the same position will suffer from room gain. Among the speakers I've measured here, the Duo has demonstrated the best extension in repeated tests, which I figured was a function of the active design.

I also wouldn't call the Duo similar to the R3 in the bass - the former has significantly more energy into the 20s. It also has more energy into the low 20s than the Focal Kanta No 3. Here are the three speakers roughly overlapped: Duo in blue, Kanta in red, R3 in white.

View attachment 27941

In practice, the Duo sound like something is happening at 25hz. I get little of this with the R3 (which is nonetheless my preferred speaker). A lot of the music I listen to has ample sub-bass content and I believe the difference in bass extension between the two speakers would be obvious to the lay listener at typical listening levels.

Anyway, I think we've strayed a bit I just brought up the Duo because it's the only speaker its size I've heard with extension that low other than when I briefly tried the Devialet phantoms at my old place, but that's a whole 'nother story.

The interesting bit is the oscillation of the Duo in the 20-50 Hz range. The Focal and KEFs appear to have more typical frequency responses, where amp and DSP recognize (and respect) the natural low frequency roll-off limitations of the driver/cabinet.

The Duo doesn't have this traditional driver roll-off. It's as if the amp and DSP try to make the speaker do something at the raw edge of its abilities. We're talking about several 3-5 dB oscillations, which would likely be audible on a frequency sweep (and may be apparent musically).

All of this doesn't take the room response into effect, which could add or subtract from audibility.

Thoughts?

 

[andreasmaaan]

The interesting bit is the oscillation of the Duo in the 20-50 Hz range. The Focal and KEFs appear to have more typical frequency responses, where amp and DSP recognize (and respect) the natural low frequency roll-off limitations of the driver/cabinet.

The Duo doesn't have this traditional driver roll-off. It's as if the amp and DSP try to make the speaker do something at the raw edge of its abilities. We're talking about several 3-5 dB oscillations, which would likely be audible on a frequency sweep (and may be apparent musically).

All of this doesn't take the room response into effect, which could add or subtract from audibility.

Thoughts?

I don't think we can conclude this from an in-room measurement. Way too many variables to know how what we're seeing on this graph relates to what the speaker is outputting.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Agree. It is interesting that the other speakers don't show the extension or frequency oscillation though...

 

[napilopez]

I see now! Sorry. Looking at the first graph you posted, the Duo appeared to have similar extension to the R3. I see now that it achieves an additional 15-ish Hz.

What I stand by are my comments about the SPLs at which it might be capable of that extension. The size of the midwoofer will, as a I mentioned before, limit the Duo's output at 25Hz to somewhere in the vicinity of 75dB (anechoic) in a sealed box. The fact that it seems able to do this at moderate SPLs (90dB @ 25Hz in-room might translate to e.g. 70db per speaker @ 1m anechoically) and then pull back on bass extension at higher SPLs - and that this translates to your ears as increased bass extension and not strain/distortion - suggests that the DSP implementation is well-done.

Anyway, I didn't want to get off topic either, and I acknowledge that DSP can extend bass response at modest SPLs at the cost of increased distortion. I just wanted to point out that ultimately, there is a bass extension/SPL/distortion matrix that is 99% a question of mechanics (driver and box) - but we've already agreed on that

Gotcha! Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy =] Yes, everything you said makes sense.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Agree. It is interesting that the other speakers don't show the extension or frequency oscillation though...

If it is indeed a reflection of the speaker's DSP (which TBH I doubt), I'd say it's the least of one's concerns down in that range

 

[GrimSurfer]

If it is indeed a reflection of the speaker's DSP (which TBH I doubt), I'd say it's the least of one's concerns down in that range

I doubt it would be anything BUT DSP. In a speaker of that size/configuration, high spl at 20-30 Hz isn't typical al all.

It wouldn't be the least of my concerns either, as these levels are at or above the threshold of audibility and unlikely to be attenuated by furnishings etc.


.

 

[napilopez]

The interesting bit is the oscillation of the Duo in the 20-50 Hz range. The Focal and KEFs appear to have more typical frequency responses, where amp and DSP recognize (and respect) the natural low frequency roll-off limitations of the driver/cabinet.

The Duo doesn't have this traditional driver roll-off. It's as if the amp and DSP try to make the speaker do something at the raw edge of its abilities. We're talking about several 3-5 dB oscillations, which would likely be audible on a frequency sweep (and may be apparent musically).

All of this doesn't take the room response into effect, which could add or subtract from audibility.

Thoughts?

Are you looking at the scale correctly? Those oscillations are about 2dB at most

 

[GrimSurfer]

Are you looking at the scale correctly? Those oscillations are about 2dB at most

Quite right....2 dB peak to trough up to 40 Hz. The 5 dB oscillation from 45-52 Hz caught my eye though. Wow! This isn't something one could attribute to room effect. It's got to be a DSP interaction with the driver/cabinet/port.

There's a lot that could be happening here. Hysteresis, chuffing, resonance, or DSP tuning to get an impressive "number" on frequency response.

FWIW, there's not much worth in looking at in-room frequency response above 200 Hz or so because room effect, reflections, absorption can be massive at mid and high frequencies.