It would surely be great if he would join to comment. I would especially be interested in his thoughts how would his Type07 studio monitors + subs (if I remember correctly @mitchco was using Rythmik Audio subs) compare to his Tower mains once Type07 and subs are properly integrated.
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Dr. Klaus Heinz of HEDD Audio (ex ADAM Audio) - measuring speakers, in particular speaker dynamics
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It would surely be great if he would join to comment. I would especially be interested in his thoughts how would his Type07 studio monitors + subs (if I remember correctly @mitchco was using Rythmik Audio subs) compare to his Tower mains once Type07 and subs are properly integrated.
KSTR
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In the meantime, you might want to note my post here:https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ased-speaker-designs.6441/page-17#post-155377 (and see also post #336). The TM's are pretty much based on Type30 concept and execution but I left HEDD in the early design stage of those so I cannot comment on details.
Very interesting!
So, what is your opinion - if you take Type 30, pair it with a decent subwoofer (like Rythmik Audio) and do a proper integration/linearisation either mannually or with a SW like Audiolense, how would they compare against TMs? Would they, in your opinion, be hard to identify in a blind test?
My guess is that they would measure extremely similar in terms of directivity and distortion as MF and HF drivers are nearly identical or are identical. Assuming all decent quality subs sound very similar to our ears it would be interesting to see if listeners would be able to identify which speaker is playing.
Thanks for that.
I felt there was an increase in clarity with the JBLs due to less room sound but, yes, the LS50s don't sound small (I have a pair) and I was surprised the subs didn't make more difference than they did.
I just finished reading mitcho's article and listened to the files. My conclusion is simple: it does NOT at all apply to this topic. As I noted earlier, the sense of bass is totally gone as is deep bass reproduction. Secondly, for a binaural recording to work as far as imaging and such, your HRTF needs to be closely matched to that of the dummy head/or whatever head is used in the recording. Mine must not at all match that as all I get is the sound in the middle of my head. There is no projection even close to front of my head let alone in front of me. It is classic "headphone sound."
This setup needed to be evaluated with a neutral listener who listened to the setting live, and then compared it to the binaural recording.
Let me give you a real-life example of someone trying to show dynamic range of speaker systems. A few years ago at CEDIA conference a speaker manufacturer said they set up to differentiate themselves from others in dynamic range for movies. So they had built a surround sound setup in a mocked up theater. They then played a western movie scene with gunshots. Every time a bullet was fired, not only you heard amazing impulse power, but my pant legs would swing with the wind/sound pressure of those bursts! What was fascinating was that while the rest of the scene was loud, it was not at all uncomfortable. The average level was what you wanted the movie to be about and the peaks would do what I have heard do when listening to live gunshots.
A few years later, Harman had a demo room at CES showing their new Revel Rythem 2 subs. They played a set of drum tracks and the sensation I mentioned above went past 11!
We are talking an experience you have never had with clean and super dynamic bass. Stereophile reviewed them. Here is a bit from them: https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-rhythm2-powered-subwoofer-page-2Sometime later we built our theater at Madrona digital and at near reference we have people who after listening once, were too scared to go back in the room!
And again, this is not "loud" but super dynamic. Average levels were just fine but in movie effects, your world would come to an end just like it did in the movie. Needless to say, nothing remotely approximating the above was in the recordings.
I have not seen binaural recordings be used to represent the above experiences in any research.
So no, you can't go there with the mitcho recordings. Neither the grand sense of soundstage in tall and large speakers is there, nor any sense of bass dynamics.
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I think we can all agree that headphones and speakers provide a very different experience and that binaural recordings won't convey the whole speaker listening experience simply because they cant, especially when it comes to bass dynamics. But they are interesting nonetheless and can provide information beyond subjective reviews.
I am also a fan of relatively large speakers and I also believe small speakers can't really match them in terms of the whole experience. I've listened to the Kii, found them to be excellent speakers, trying too hard to emulate big ones. I kind of felt vindicated when they suddenly became "big" speakers with the BXT modules or, in other words, when Kii entered the subwoofer market
Now, dual hypex + focal + dual SVS SB-16 Ultra can also put tremendous clean sound pressure in most rooms although I am not sure it is always desirable. Shaking the bowels of your friends does indeed make great demos and is well suited to some kind of electronic or ambient music but it is very easy to overdo it. I am not an avid shooter but did use guns on a range a few times and my pants stayed where they were supposed to be.
What I gathered from Mitch's article is that putting a bit of elbow grease into the integration of small speakers such as the LS 50 with subwoofers can come quite close to the experience big boxes provide. In fact, I did just that in my office, managed to get a response curve that was almost as good as Mitch's (just a steep 4dB drop around 90 which I attribute to the room, working on it...) and the illusion of bigger speakers is convincing just as I am suspecting the Focal or Giya plus dual SB-16 punch a bit above their weights (as usual ownership bias warning). Note: I know that 2 smaller subs would probably better to handle room effects, but the room is otherwise full of trash and I can't position them.
While it is fair to say the binaural recording don't do justice to the impact big speakers or subwoofer do, it doesn't invalidate the rest of his article imho. One can come relatively close on a budget. And exact match, probably not, and I still prefer my larger systems, at the same SPL, with nearly identical response curves, possibly for other reasons (driver quality? distortion? better integration? no idea tbh).
But the whole debate is basically splitting hairs: aren't big full range speakers just smaller speakers paired with optimally matched subwoofers anyway? (leaving aside the eventual quality of the drivers).
I am also a fan of relatively large speakers and I also believe small speakers can't really match them in terms of the whole experience. I've listened to the Kii, found them to be excellent speakers, trying too hard to emulate big ones. I kind of felt vindicated when they suddenly became "big" speakers with the BXT modules or, in other words, when Kii entered the subwoofer market
Now, dual hypex + focal + dual SVS SB-16 Ultra can also put tremendous clean sound pressure in most rooms although I am not sure it is always desirable. Shaking the bowels of your friends does indeed make great demos and is well suited to some kind of electronic or ambient music but it is very easy to overdo it. I am not an avid shooter but did use guns on a range a few times and my pants stayed where they were supposed to be.
What I gathered from Mitch's article is that putting a bit of elbow grease into the integration of small speakers such as the LS 50 with subwoofers can come quite close to the experience big boxes provide. In fact, I did just that in my office, managed to get a response curve that was almost as good as Mitch's (just a steep 4dB drop around 90 which I attribute to the room, working on it...) and the illusion of bigger speakers is convincing just as I am suspecting the Focal or Giya plus dual SB-16 punch a bit above their weights (as usual ownership bias warning
). Note: I know that 2 smaller subs would probably better to handle room effects, but the room is otherwise full of trash and I can't position them.While it is fair to say the binaural recording don't do justice to the impact big speakers or subwoofer do, it doesn't invalidate the rest of his article imho. One can come relatively close on a budget. And exact match, probably not, and I still prefer my larger systems, at the same SPL, with nearly identical response curves, possibly for other reasons (driver quality? distortion? better integration? no idea tbh).
But the whole debate is basically splitting hairs: aren't big full range speakers just smaller speakers paired with optimally matched subwoofers anyway? (leaving aside the eventual quality of the drivers).
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I think different people have different ideas of what “big speaker” means.
A floorstanding 3-way with one or two 8” woofers isn’t big in my opinion (although obviously it’s not small either.). I’d consider “big” to be more in the PA size range. So 12”+ midwoofers, horns, that kind of thing. Speakers that can do 120dB+.
But yeh, the former is comparable in many ways to a standmount + sub, I’d agree.
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I agree: most of my friends think the Focal are big, I see them as medium. It's all relative
I am kind of reasonable in the way I treat my ears. - Thread Starter
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To relate it back to the video I shared in opening post, it's moreso about a speaker sounding bigger than another (i.e. relatively, in comparison).
Dr Heinz compares bigger studio monitors sounding bigger than smaller bookshelves that sound 'boxy' and 'stuffy' and puts it down to 'dynamics'.
But as per a lot of discussion so far, what if we added a sub or two to these smaller bookshelves and did 'proper' integration of these subs, for example like @mitchco did with digital EQ (something a lot of people already do with bookshelves and subs of course).
Would be interesting to hear Dr Klaus Heinz thoughts on this, if he joined the forum.
Visuals are quite significant.
Horns, typically, present a superior acoustic(transformer) impedance match to the environmental air that they react with. This results in higher efficiency and better transient response(also due to lighter weight diaphragms/cones). Horns tend to have a rim-shot blink reaction effect that box systems, in comparison, seem to lack.
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Excellent observations of the strengths and weaknesses of the various speaker designs.
IMO There are just some sound qualites for speakers capable of moving large amounts of air that can't be equaled by smaller 2 and three driver stand mounts.
Exactly what I was thinking. Horns, large panel speakers, speakers with a large array of tweeter and midrange drivers can all compete in the large speaker sound impression. It's not about playing loud but maybe more the very low distortion at medium levels, a ease and impact to the music even when the volume is at less then earth shaking volume.
YMMV
I agree, 3-way floorstander is not really big, I consider it "medium". But I don't really agree with the 120dB+ criteteria as we are speaking about speakers to be used in homes (or we are not?). In that terms I would suggest that maybe a lowest frequency that a speaker can play with -3dB or -6dB is used as a criteria to characterise it's "size". In that case the division could look something like this:
>50Hz - small speakers
>40Hz - smaller medium speakers
>30Hz - large medium speakers
>20Hz - large speakers
By that criteria LS50 with a decent subwoofers (preferrably at least one for each speaker) would become a large speaker.
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I fully agree with this.
Well my main speakers have a -3dB point of 26Hz and I am using an amp with 1000W/channel into them but a REL Studio subwoofer makes a noticeable difference on a (very) few music tracks, the feel of the low pedal notes organ in "Softly and Gently" at the end of the Boult recording of Elgar's "Dream of Gerontius" is a reason in itself to own a subwoofer IMO...
One notices its contribution more watching films.
One notices its contribution more watching films.
My mains have -3dB at 32Hz, which is just enough for the music I'm listening. My kids would love they go further below. My neghbours wouldn't.
Here is a nice article from Stereophile on that topic.
My mains have -3dB at 32Hz, which is just enough for the music I'm listening. My kids would love they go further below. My neghbours wouldn't.
Here is a nice article from Stereophile on that topic.
Me, too. My 13.5 Cu. Ft. cabs are tuned to 32Hz. On the odd occasion that that the recording goes below that, I don't stress.
Sometimes I share my music with my neighbours. No complaints, yet.
svart-hvitt
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I remember the Kii Threes were marketed as «small big speakers». Then came the BXT to do something about that, tripling the size of the Kii Three.
Now they're big small speakers ???
Ah never mind.
Well, they are small in size but big in sound so the name is not so wrong.
P.S. probably the same name can be applied to Devialet.
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