ASR MEMBERS: What System Would YOU Choose To Blow Away Non-Audiophiles?

[MattHooper]

You have an excellent point there. A lot of non-audiophiles who come to visit are surprised I have no turntable. This is because so many of them think that turntables sound better! My friend came over with his new girlfriend (a rather hippy lass from a rather hippy suburb). She said "I used to use Spotify until I bought my first turntable. It sounds SOOO MUCH BETTER!! You should get one!!"

I decided to be diplomatic and steer the conversation elsewhere, rather than launch into a technical explanation of why she was wrong. That's the wisdom of my older years ... even if you know a lot about something, it is usually better to keep your mouth shut.

I'm of two minds about that. On one hand, even if there is some misunderstandings involved, I see way more "normies" talking about sound quality again with vinyl, like this is actually something they have some passionate feelings about. So it's nice to see sound quality being discussed more often.

As to your specific example, aside from her misconception that "vinyl sounds so much better" generally, it could be the case that in her set up maybe records do tend to sound a bit "better" subjectively to her. Don't know what playback system she was using, or comparing to the one she uses for vinyl (like maybe she's comparing some average ear buds to vinyl through speakers?). Or maybe her turntable/cartridge set up has a bit of a smile eq or profile that sounds a bit more vivid as a source, so "wow, listen to that!"

 

[Keith_W]

I'm of two minds about that. On one hand, even if there is some misunderstandings involved, I see way more "normies" talking about sound quality again with vinyl, like this is actually something they have some passionate feelings about. So it's nice to see sound quality being discussed more often.

As to your specific example, aside from her misconception that "vinyl sounds so much better" generally, it could be the case that in her set up maybe records do tend to sound a bit "better" subjectively to her. Don't know what playback system she was using, or comparing to the one she uses for vinyl (like maybe she's comparing some average ear buds to vinyl through speakers?). Or maybe her turntable/cartridge set up has a bit of a smile eq or profile that sounds a bit more vivid as a source, so "wow, listen to that!"

Of course I agree with you. A system that fortuitiously sounds better due to a series of misguided steps is still an improvement. Older audiophiles and subjectivists talk about "synergy", or one piece of equipment making up for the deficiencies of another. This is 100% true in her case, so I would not be surprised if she goes away from this thinking that "synergy" is very real.

And yes you are right that I should have taken the opportunity to talk about sound quality. It's clear that she had an interest in it.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Interestingly, I have just "blown away" my wife!
Just put on a Christmas carol playlist from Qobuz. Sat between the speakers she was instantly alert. " Has the Rotary Club collection sleigh come again?
Then it dawned on her that the hi-fi was on!

 

[Multicore]

But the isolated room or static chair of holographic tunes will remain a tedious parlor trick to many folks who don’t crave it.

Perverted antisocial habit, iuam. ;>

 

[Bjorn]

Large horn system with broadband constant directivity and low crossover. Separate bass solution with great capacity and low modulation distortion. Acoustical treated room with control over low frequency resonances and specular energy, and with late arriving diffuse energy.
Low distortion electronics and of course active with amp to each driver.

 

[levimax]

What I would consider a high end SOTA audio system and what would impress people the most are 2 different things. I know first hand when I replaced my tube amps with SS amps in my system that people in general were much less impressed.

To impress people I would get some big mono block OTL tube amps prominently displayed. Then large and very efficient speakers like Khorns in a good size treated room. For a source one of those "oil rig" giant TT's and have the rest of the electronics impressively displayed in a large rack mount system. All the visible cables would be the large "garden hose" style.

Next and very importantly I would find some music that the person has a personal connection to from their youth that has a good quality original LP available.

I would sit the person down in a nice chair in the "sweet spot", hand them the LP cover to look at while I carefully and methodically turned on all of the electronics. I would then take the LP and carefully and methodically set it on the TT and carefully clean it and then hand the LP sleeve back. Then go back to the TT and carefully set down the needle on the record and then turn up the volume to a nice and loud setting.

Most people will be "blown away" with this experience.

 

[MKR]

Large horn system with broadband constant directivity and low crossover. Separate bass solution with great capacity and low modulation distortion. Acoustical treated room with control over low frequency resonances and specular energy, and with late arriving diffuse energy.
Low distortion electronics and of course active with amp to each driver.

Add in cardioid capability (reduce the amount of room treatment, always a turn off for non-audiophiles in my experience) and I am on board with your criteria . Add pants flapping chest caving bass via multiple 15” or greater sub drivers (flat to infrasonic freq) and you should cause some jaws to drop.

 

[Bjorn]

Add in cardioid capability (reduce the amount of room treatment, always a turn off for non-audiophiles in my experience) and I am on board with your criteria . Add pants flapping chest caving bass via multiple 15” or greater sub drivers (flat to infrasonic freq) and you should cause some jaws to drop.

Add cardioid to a horn with constant directivity? A well designed horn already has a directivty that's much improved over cardioid. Have you looked at cardioid polars in details? Notice that it changes in directivity with as much as 40-50°. A well designed horn is far more constant. Secondly, normally and what I'm talking about, the horn has a narrower directivity than cardioid dispersion. A classic cardioid has a horizontal beamwidth theoritically of 120° (though it's often wider). A large horn is normally in the area of 80-90°. Thirdly, a large horn is also able to mantain the directivity vertically and with a narrow beamwidth, something the cardioid doesn't do and which IMO is very important to sound quality.

And it's worth mentioning that a horn with narrow and uniform dispersion is a design type that actually benefit from placement close to a wall. It will pick up efficiency/gain and without detrimental effect. The latter is achieved with pattern control which prevents the sound energy from hitting the boundary. The result is basically no change in frequency response but increased sensitivity.
What's drawback? Size! With horn, size is everything.

If you are referring to cardiod subwoofer, there's no gain for that in a small acoustical room. Due to large wavelengths, it's not possible to obtain any directivity control in the lowest frequencies. It's will be completely swamped by room modes. Besides, cardioid subwoofer are very ineffcient. Cardioid subwoofers only makes sense either outdoor or in large concert venues where you want to steer the sound.

 

[MKR]

Add cardioid to a horn with constant directivity? A well designed horn already has a directivty that's much improved over cardioid. Have you looked at cardioid polars in details? Notice that it changes in directivity with as much as 40-50°. A well designed horn is far more constant. Secondly, normally and what I'm talking about, the horn has a narrower directivity than cardioid dispersion. A classic cardioid has a horizontal beamwidth theoritically of 120° (though it's often wider). A large horn is normally in the area of 80-90°. Thirdly, a large horn is also able to mantain the directivity vertically and with a narrow beamwidth, something the cardioid doesn't do and which IMO is very important to sound quality.

And it's worth mentioning that a horn with narrow and uniform dispersion is a design type that actually benefit from placement close to a wall. It will pick up efficiency/gain and without detrimental effect. The latter is achieved with pattern control which prevents the sound energy from hitting the boundary. The result is basically no change in frequency response but increased sensitivity.
What's drawback? Size! With horn, size is everything.

If you are referring to cardiod subwoofer, there's no gain for that in a small acoustical room. Due to large wavelengths, it's not possible to obtain any directivity control in the lowest frequencies. It's will be completely swamped by room modes. Besides, cardioid subwoofer are very ineffcient. Cardioid subwoofers only makes sense either outdoor or in large concert venues where you want to steer the sound.

I am speaking of cardioid mid bass and lower. Are you saying Dutch & Dutch, Soundfield, Sigberg, Kii, etc cardioid is useless?

 

[Sal1950]

Just this week a father of one of my son's friends (who I'm happy to help if possible) was texting me asking what good stand alone CD player to buy for under $200 (ironically, apparently his young daughter wants one!). I have zero idea! I haven't bought a CD player for 25 years!

I know this is going to sound weird, but I've had real good luck with a used Sony BDP BX-57 Blu Ray player. It's SACD capable, also can play DVDs, which means it can play DVD-A. Though it has a pair of analog stereo outs, it also has digital output. I'm using the optical out into a Topping E30 with good results. Have been using it almost daily for over two years.

Funny I had the same thought as you Robin, I got my Sony BDP-S5100 for $40 w/remote, shipped, for it's abliity to rip SACD's but thought a used item as a present for his daughter might not be appropriate.
OTOH I also just picked up a new Sony X800M2 for $229 at BestBuy. A great full duty BluRay player that's built like a tank and should give many years of service. With coax digital and HDMI out's, only thing it may lack is analog outs but a DAC could be purchased on Amazon or Ebay for peanuts.
Just thinnin

 

[gnarly]

Cardioid subwoofers only makes sense either outdoor or in large concert venues where you want to steer the sound.

I've attended live-sound measurement workshops where a number of cardioid sub configurations were set up outdoors in parking lots.
We would measure 360 degrees all around to help visualize the nullification lobes, as well as slowly walking all around listening, to assess perceived sonic impact.

My two main takeaways were:
a. cardioid setup is only desirable when there is a need to reduce sub output somewhere.....on the stage, or often a particular set of "money seats" that want to be close to stage, etc

b. every type cardioid deployment caused some degree of sound degradation in the primary coverage zone. The greater the cardioid cancelation in whatever direction, the greater the cost to sub quality. Another no free lunch, as expected in all things audio.

I can't see how indoor cardioid subs can help much...especially when considering the set of "virtual subs" that any sub forms with room boundaries.
Maybe cardioid does work ok for mid-bass or some particular range....dunno, no experience.
I'm also convinced a large horn to be a better solution....
...of course IF one can stand the size.

 

[Descartes]

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[Robin L]

OTOH I also just picked up a new Sony X800M2 for $229 at BestBuy. A great full duty BluRay player that's built like a tank and should give many years of service. With coax digital and HDMI out's, only thing it may lack is analog outs but a DAC could be purchased on Amazon or Ebay for peanuts.
Just thinnin

I'm using the optical out of my Sony Blu Ray player, attached to a Topping E30. I don't know if the Sony player you mentioned is SACD capable, but most of my SACDs are hybrid anyway. I still have a handful of single layer SACDs of music I really like (Monk, mostly). So, yeah, that could work out. I really must hook up the analog outs of the Sony so I can play my Blu Ray audio discs. I only have three and two are duplicated in CD form so not a big, really.

 

[Bjorn]

I am speaking of cardioid mid bass and lower. Are you saying Dutch & Dutch, Soundfield, Sigberg, Kii, etc cardioid is useless?

A midbass horn and which I'm referring to is far better IMO. As explained in my previous post.

Cardioid speakers generally have a more uniform directivty that many typical speakers and the dispersion is a bit narrower but not that much. Going from 180-160° to 160/120° (typical range for cardoid speakers) isn't necessarily a huge difference. Both designs will trigger reflections from both side walls, just a bit less level from the cardioid.

No, I don't think cardioid is useless. But I don't think they are great designs either as explained earlier, and they generally don't give the "blow away" experience to listeners. Something large and well designed constant directivity horns seem to always do as long as the room and acoustics isn't really bad.

 

[Purité Audio]

Would you consider the Danley HRE to have constant directivity?

HRE1 | Danley Sound Labs

Danley produces its first-ever loudspeakers for home & home theater use. Experience sound as it was intended.

www.danleysoundlabs.com

Keith

 

[Sal1950]

I don't know if the Sony player you mentioned is SACD capable, but most of my SACDs are hybrid anyway.

A Sony that wouldn't play SACD?
That would be a sacrilege. LOL

Sony UBP X800M2

Blu-ray Disc
Ultra HD Blu-ray, BD-ROM,
BD-R/BD-RE

DVD
DVD-ROM, DVD-R/
DVD-RW, DVD+R/DVD+RW
DVD AUDIO

CD
CD-DA (Music CD),
CD-ROM, CD-R/CD-RW,
Super Audio CD

 

[Bjorn]

Personally I think Beolab 90 and 50 are best cardioid speakers I have heard. They are both cardioid in narrow mode. Whilst I didn't exactly get blown away by the sound from them, there are those who have.

 

[Bjorn]

Would you consider the Danley HRE to have constant directivity?

HRE1 | Danley Sound Labs

Danley produces its first-ever loudspeakers for home & home theater use. Experience sound as it was intended.

www.danleysoundlabs.com

Keith

Haven't seen a polar. But Danley SH-50 (same horn?) is fairly but not super constant down to 700 Hz and where they gradually break up. That's obviously a lot better than most speakers, but it's not broadband CD. Ideally we want constant directivity down to the Schroeder frequency, which in most homes are in the area of 200-300 Hz.

 

[MKR]

I've attended live-sound measurement workshops where a number of cardioid sub configurations were set up outdoors in parking lots.
We would measure 360 degrees all around to help visualize the nullification lobes, as well as slowly walking all around listening, to assess perceived sonic impact.

My two main takeaways were:
a. cardioid setup is only desirable when there is a need to reduce sub output somewhere.....on the stage, or often a particular set of "money seats" that want to be close to stage, etc

b. every type cardioid deployment caused some degree of sound degradation in the primary coverage zone. The greater the cardioid cancelation in whatever direction, the greater the cost to sub quality. Another no free lunch, as expected in all things audio.

I can't see how indoor cardioid subs can help much...especially when considering the set of "virtual subs" that any sub forms with room boundaries.
Maybe cardioid does work ok for mid-bass or some particular range....dunno, no experience.
I'm also convinced a large horn to be a better solution....
...of course IF one can stand the size.

Have you heard an “indoor” cardioid? I have just about heard it all and never heard mid to low frequencies reproduced as well as I have from cardioid … and best of all, with ZERO room treatment. I rather have speakers that adapt to the room and require no room treatment than speakers that you have to make your room look like a sanitarium padded cell to sound decent. Which by the way definitely does not appeal to the masses (room treatment), coming back to the point of this thread.

 

[MKR]

A midbass horn and which I'm referring to is far better IMO. As explained in my previous post.

Cardioid speakers generally have a more uniform directivty that many typical speakers and the dispersion is a bit narrower but not that much. Going from 180-160° to 160/120° (typical range for cardoid speakers) isn't necessarily a huge difference. Both designs will trigger reflections from both side walls, just a bit less level from the cardioid.

No, I don't think cardioid is useless. But I don't think they are great designs either as explained earlier, and they generally don't give the "blow away" experience to listeners. Something large and well designed constant directivity horns seem to always do as long as the room and acoustics isn't really bad.

Which is better per the science, not opinion? Are there scientific papers you can cite that back up your claims I can read? (not at all being snarky, a genuine question, as maybe I have some ignorance here that needs corrected … always happy to be corrected by science).

And maybe I just don’t have golden ears, but I have definitely been blown away by the cardioids I have heard (with no room treatment).