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Subjectivist’s rant debunked

ahofer

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It'd be at some point interesting to have a poll about...

1. What is the percentage of the world's population you think is interested in this thing called audio?
2. What makes you think you have made all the right decisions in your audio journey?
3. Why are you passionate about educating people's choices in all things audio?
4. Do you think your level of disagreement with other audio hobbyists is in proportion to the relevance of audio in other people's quality of life?
5. Do you sometimes feel like you should spend less time arguing about audio gadgets on the internet, and more time listening to your favorite music?

:)

I'd make it a multiple choice test, or quantify it in some way, or add additional questions or replace the ones I propose. I openly invite suggestions. I think It could be a very interesting survey that actually hasn't been conducted anywhere else. We can thank both Devore and the more anonymous Archimago for inspiring this survey. :)
Ha! I'm listening to music right now

1702522100053.png


 

Somafunk

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1 : < .1
2 : No interest in anything other that what I have settled for
3 : Only bought one hifi system in my life decent technics separates and tannoy 605's in 92, kept that for 14 years, bought KRK active speakers and a pro audio audio interface in 2006 and used with Mac, 2020 bought stuff in signature and I'm now finished.
4 : I can't think of any disagreement with anyone on this forum or another regarding audio equipment
5 : I haven't argued, there was a difference of opinion between preferred levels of acoustic treatment on a thread here. I prefer a dry acoustically treated room RT<40 to listen in for my choice of electronic music, some folk said I was wrong to treat a room as it is not a studio and you need reverberation. I shrugged, moved on - who are others to say I listen to music in the wrong enviroment
 

Sal1950

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I disagree with those who say he hurts people selling snake oil, clearly he is outspoken in what his priorities are. And some people enjoy what what he designs, and buy it - and that's all there is to it.
Hurts people?
Well if you sell them a expensive speaker that sounds like crap (not HiFi), or a $12,000 power cable that does nothing, maybe you haven't hurt them, but you have swindled them, whether they realize it or not. The guy that plugs in that powercord and for whatever reason hears and believes it to be a big improvement, he's happy. Then when he writes a review or tells his friends, he continues and accelerates the circle of swindle. :(
So "hurt people" maybe no, but it hobbles the industry. The drive and enthusiasm to improve the breed (High Fidelity) has been replaced by a drive and enthusiasm to find ever more inventive ways to market BS and make big bucks off the uneducated or deaf.

"Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision " J. Gordon Holt

IOW (whatever the original music), many out there couldn't - wouldn't recognize an accurate reproduction if it bit them in the ass. So down they go on the path of "sounds good to me" as the only criteria that's important, and everyone that loves listening to reproduced music has suffered. :oops:
 

Sal1950

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Ha! I'm listening to music right now
Me too. I just got the newly released Porcupine Tree - Closure / Continuation Live Amsterdam BluRay in 7.1.4 Atmos sound.
Incredible.
porcupinetreeclosurelive.jpeg
 

MattHooper

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FWIW...since the O/96 speaker became one of the subjects in this thread from early on....

To balance out the positives I experienced with the Devore here are some of the negatives

1.
Like John Atkinson, I heard some unevenness in the sound. I don't know if it was the lower treble resonance cited by JA, or something about the driver config/crossover...but on a few tracks it was like some notes were being slightly obscured or pushed back in volume. I remember noticing that on a harp piece, where some notes seemed to "step in and out" volume wise, and with some pizzicato strings.

2. The bass could occasionally be too much for me. The occasional track exhibited some bloat and loss of control with really deep bass notes.

3. Very directional. As predicted by measurements, yes it's one of the first things I noticed. I'm used to listening to speakers with wider, more even radiation in the upper frequencies, and it was clear this speaker was more susceptible to tonal balance changes with horizontal head movement (I know I checked vertical head positions above/below tweeter axis too, as I always do, but I can't remember the results). Not exactly head-in-a-vice listening scenario, but..a bit finicky.

4. Needed distance for coherence. I tend to listen somewhat close to my loudspeakers, often between 7 1/2 and 6 1/2 feet away. The O/96s did not handle this well. And it was a really sharp cut off point. I had a tape measure and as soon as I moved closer than 8 feet to the speakers, I could hear some of the coherence start to break apart, the highs would start to dull somewhat, and it felt like I was hearing the crossover points with music. That was one of the major reasons I decided not to buy them, as at the time getting the right distance to make them cohere would be difficult. (Devore recomends at least 8 feet from the speaker, so my experience certainly supports that recomendation).

5. Finicky set up. You really need to get them just right. One time I tried to compensate for a closer listening distance, and not lose highs, by toeing a pair in and moving them a bit closer together, and it just did not work. The sound sort of collapsed both tonally and in terms of imaging and the sense of size to the sound. I've read in reviews, and from owners, similar accounts, where you have to make sure they are a certain width apart and angled right, to get the best out of them. Not to mention you need a fair amount of room from the back wall so as to not overload the bass.

And along those lines, there have been owners of these speakers who just couldn't get them to work in their room. They'd say "loved them in the store, just couldn't get that sound in my home" or "loved the sound for the most part, but couldn't get them to fully work in my room."

So these are not speakers I'd go recommending to just anyone to be sure. And all the above speaks to the wisdom of what a Revel is doing (and good actives and others), and the measurements people are looking for here, in terms of making a speaker more likely to sound good in various rooms.

Of all the speakers I auditioned, the Devores were the ones I was most unsure about working in my room, and I never did get a home audition.

So, not like I wasn't aware of any negatives. That doesn't change the fact, though, that I friggin' loved the vast majority of what I played through those speakers when auditioning them, since it seemed the dealers knew how to set them up properly (in both audio stores I visited, each of which had totally different types of rooms). :)
 

Axo1989

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It'd be at some point interesting to have a poll about...

1. What is the percentage of the world's population you think is interested in this thing called audio?

If you mean Hi-Fi then a small percentage. But I think people who are listening on (say) AirPods Pro are listening to Hi-Fi, so it isn't a rounding error. If you mean music, a large majority (we have to exclude some religious zealots, and people with urgent survival issues, and so on).

2. What makes you think you have made all the right decisions in your audio journey?

I haven't. Also "audio journey" is mildly cringe-inducing (no offence, I've lived in California, so I understand).

3. Why are you passionate about educating people's choices in all things audio?

I'm not. Unless they ask.

4. Do you think your level of disagreement with other audio hobbyists is in proportion to the relevance of audio in other people's quality of life?

No. But @Somafunk's take was good, I had the same experience in that thread, and I'm not sure I care a whole lot. We can have different opinions on things like that without it being important.

5. Do you sometimes feel like you should spend less time arguing about audio gadgets on the internet, and more time listening to your favorite music?

I should spend more time on things I procrastinate on when typing things into the internet. But I can listen to music while doing the latter, so the dilemma is elsewhere.

:)

I'd make it a multiple choice test, or quantify it in some way, or add additional questions or replace the ones I propose. I openly invite suggestions. I think It could be a very interesting survey that actually hasn't been conducted anywhere else. We can thank both Devore and the more anonymous Archimago for inspiring this survey. :)

Look forward to the poll.
 

kemmler3D

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It'd be at some point interesting to have a poll about...

1. What is the percentage of the world's population you think is interested in this thing called audio?
2. What makes you think you have made all the right decisions in your audio journey?
3. Why are you passionate about educating people's choices in all things audio?
4. Do you think your level of disagreement with other audio hobbyists is in proportion to the relevance of audio in other people's quality of life?
5. Do you sometimes feel like you should spend less time arguing about audio gadgets on the internet, and more time listening to your favorite music?

:)

I'd make it a multiple choice test, or quantify it in some way, or add additional questions or replace the ones I propose. I openly invite suggestions. I think It could be a very interesting survey that actually hasn't been conducted anywhere else. We can thank both Devore and the more anonymous Archimago for inspiring this survey. :)
1. As far as I know it's around 0.5 - 1%. (Based on how many of my customers at the consumer audio company volunteered to be beta testers, participated in our FB group, etc.)
2. I certainly haven't, but I'm trying to make fewer mistakes.
3. I can't explain it, I just like thinking and discussing sound/audio online, always have. Probably just because I know a bit about it and "feeling smart on the internet" is addictive in a way.
4. Not even remotely
5. Shut up, you. ;)
 

computer-audiophile

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It'd be at some point interesting to have a poll about...

1. What is the percentage of the world's population you think is interested in this thing called audio?
2. What makes you think you have made all the right decisions in your audio journey?
3. Why are you passionate about educating people's choices in all things audio?
4. Do you think your level of disagreement with other audio hobbyists is in proportion to the relevance of audio in other people's quality of life?
5. Do you sometimes feel like you should spend less time arguing about audio gadgets on the internet, and more time listening to your favorite music?

:)

I'd make it a multiple choice test, or quantify it in some way, or add additional questions or replace the ones I propose. I openly invite suggestions. I think It could be a very interesting survey that actually hasn't been conducted anywhere else. We can thank both Devore and the more anonymous Archimago for inspiring this survey. :)
Thanks for the template @pablolie

1. What is the percentage of the world's population you think is interested in this thing called audio?
I have no overview of that. Since I joined the ASR, I have once again realised how big and sometimes strange the audio world appears to me.
2. What makes you think you have made all the right decisions in your audio journey?
Trial and error included, I simply followed my love of listening to music and my technical curiosity and skills. I've always been happy with what I had.
3. Why are you passionate about educating people's choices in all things audio?
I mainly educated myself. Sometimes I presented my own results to the public. They should speak for themselves.
4. Do you think your level of disagreement with other audio hobbyists is in proportion to the relevance of audio in other people's quality of life?
No, we are all very different. One might agree with a few audio friends. Mostly not.
5. Do you sometimes feel like you should spend less time arguing about audio gadgets on the internet, and more time listening to your favorite music?
Yes, actually, I'm getting increasingly tired of ASR. As I'm writing that, I'm listening to this stream on France Musique: Les musiciens d'orchestres baroques: van Dael, Banchini et le changement de génération.
 

Purité Audio

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FWIW...since the O/96 speaker became one of the subjects in this thread from early on....

To balance out the positives I experienced with the Devore here are some of the negatives

1.
Like John Atkinson, I heard some unevenness in the sound. I don't know if it was the lower treble resonance cited by JA, or something about the driver config/crossover...but on a few tracks it was like some notes were being slightly obscured or pushed back in volume. I remember noticing that on a harp piece, where some notes seemed to "step in and out" volume wise, and with some pizzicato strings.

2. The bass could occasionally be too much for me. The occasional track exhibited some bloat and loss of control with really deep bass notes.

3. Very directional. As predicted by measurements, yes it's one of the first things I noticed. I'm used to listening to speakers with wider, more even radiation in the upper frequencies, and it was clear this speaker was more susceptible to tonal balance changes with horizontal head movement (I know I checked vertical head positions above/below tweeter axis too, as I always do, but I can't remember the results). Not exactly head-in-a-vice listening scenario, but..a bit finicky.

4. Needed distance for coherence. I tend to listen somewhat close to my loudspeakers, often between 7 1/2 and 6 1/2 feet away. The O/96s did not handle this well. And it was a really sharp cut off point. I had a tape measure and as soon as I moved closer than 8 feet to the speakers, I could hear some of the coherence start to break apart, the highs would start to dull somewhat, and it felt like I was hearing the crossover points with music. That was one of the major reasons I decided not to buy them, as at the time getting the right distance to make them cohere would be difficult. (Devore recomends at least 8 feet from the speaker, so my experience certainly supports that recomendation).

5. Finicky set up. You really need to get them just right. One time I tried to compensate for a closer listening distance, and not lose highs, by toeing a pair in and moving them a bit closer together, and it just did not work. The sound sort of collapsed both tonally and in terms of imaging and the sense of size to the sound. I've read in reviews, and from owners, similar accounts, where you have to make sure they are a certain width apart and angled right, to get the best out of them. Not to mention you need a fair amount of room from the back wall so as to not overload the bass.

And along those lines, there have been owners of these speakers who just couldn't get them to work in their room. They'd say "loved them in the store, just couldn't get that sound in my home" or "loved the sound for the most part, but couldn't get them to fully work in my room."

So these are not speakers I'd go recommending to just anyone to be sure. And all the above speaks to the wisdom of what a Revel is doing (and good actives and others), and the measurements people are looking for here, in terms of making a speaker more likely to sound good in various rooms.

Of all the speakers I auditioned, the Devores were the ones I was most unsure about working in my room, and I never did get a home audition.

So, not like I wasn't aware of any negatives. That doesn't change the fact, though, that I friggin' loved the vast majority of what I played through those speakers when auditioning them, since it seemed the dealers knew how to set them up properly (in both audio stores I visited, each of which had totally different types of rooms). :)
If you are interested in really poor sounding loudspeakers I would recommend the Munich Hi-End show and its smaller sibling the ‘De-luxe’ not only poor but ridiculously expensive too.
Keith
 

JayGilb

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The drive and enthusiasm to improve the breed (High Fidelity) has been replaced by a drive and enthusiasm to find ever more inventive ways to market BS and make big bucks off the uneducated or deaf.
This was inevitable as we approached musical reproduction quality that is above the human level of detection.
 

MattHooper

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"Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision " J. Gordon Holt

It's interesting that you seem to produce that quote approvingly, given it seems most ASR members have indeed abandoned the "acoustical-instrument standard" Holt had in mind. Most it seems have eschewed the concept of fidelity to the sound of real instruments as a standard, and have retreated to "just want to reproduce the signal." I'm curious: Where do you stand on that point, Sal?

If you are interested in really poor sounding loudspeakers I would recommend the Munich Hi-End show and its smaller sibling the ‘De-luxe’ not only poor but ridiculously expensive too.
Keith

I would loooove to go to the Munich show!

I enjoy watching 4K video walk-throughs of audio shows in my home theater and the Munich is one of my favourite. There's so many wild and intriguing approaches to audio on display, from all sorts of panel speakers, open baffled dynamics, omnis, horn speakers of various Willy-Wonka shapes and sizes!

I love all the thinking-outside-of-the-box passion and surprise it represents which tor me can be an invigorating contrast to the monotony of the handful of speakers that are praised and recommended via the ASR paradigm. I sometimes count them jumping over a fence, to get to sleep: ...."Genelec..*hop*...Neumann...*hop*...KEF...*hop*...Revel...*hop*....:)
 

Purité Audio

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Well there are far more poor sounding than good, it seems to me that many loudspeakers have never seen a microphone.
Particularly the myth/guru persuasion.
Keith
 

Sal1950

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It's interesting that you seem to produce that quote approvingly, given it seems most ASR members have indeed abandoned the "acoustical-instrument standard" Holt had in mind. Most it seems have eschewed the concept of fidelity to the sound of real instruments as a standard, and have retreated to "just want to reproduce the signal." I'm curious: Where do you stand on that point, Sal?
Simple, I thought you'd understand that, guess not.
When it comes to opening the 'circle of confusion" , he's right. We know (or should) exactly what a live violin sounds like..
With electronic music, in most cases what we are trying to reproduce is what the artists and engineers heard in the studio, that is our standard.
 

computer-audiophile

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I love all the thinking-outside-of-the-box passion
Yes, this is great. BTW we've experienced a lot more of inspiration: Frickelfest's, European Triode Festivals, Lenco Heaven Meets, Mélaudia Weekends...

These are places where audio creatives and developers meet and have fun. Beyond the commercial audio world and the vendors.
 

Anton D

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It'd be at some point interesting to have a poll about...

1. What is the percentage of the world's population you think is interested in this thing called audio?
2. What makes you think you have made all the right decisions in your audio journey?
3. Why are you passionate about educating people's choices in all things audio?
4. Do you think your level of disagreement with other audio hobbyists is in proportion to the relevance of audio in other people's quality of life?
5. Do you sometimes feel like you should spend less time arguing about audio gadgets on the internet, and more time listening to your favorite music?

:)

I'd make it a multiple choice test, or quantify it in some way, or add additional questions or replace the ones I propose. I openly invite suggestions. I think It could be a very interesting survey that actually hasn't been conducted anywhere else. We can thank both Devore and the more anonymous Archimago for inspiring this survey. :)
Love the questions:

1) I'd guess there are about 100-200 thousand audiophiles. So, 8 billion people...about 0.00025%?

2) I haven't made only right decisions. I wouldn't believe anybody who says he did. I am fallible, or course!

3) I am passionate about the joy we share, the educational part may come from sharing past experience, good or bad. The lowest form of audiophilery is beration thinking oneself to possess definitive answers for other people.

4) No. But, I do think there is a reason why so many audiophiles listen alone in a room with one chair.

5) I don't have a computer at home. But, if I am working, I can fit in some arguing on my breaks! :D
 

Purité Audio

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Engineers don’t have fun, have you met any engineers?
Keith
 

Anton D

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This was inevitable as we approached musical reproduction quality that is above the human level of detection.
Any piece of gear that has a SINAD below the audible threshold is just someone trying to part objectivists from their money.

:p
 

MattHooper

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Well there are far more poor sounding than good, it seems to me that many loudspeakers have never seen a microphone.
Particularly the myth/guru persuasion.
Keith

Sure, but that's fine with me. I find the failures interesting along with the successes. And I find there is a lot of in between: loudspeakers that show some interesting strengths, even if I find them wanting in other areas. Reminds me of a wild pair of speakers I experienced at a show, lowther drivers (IIRC) surrounded by huge transparent plastic acoustic lenses, the size of large umbrellas, focusing the sound toward the listener. Not much bass to speak of, surely wasn't terribly neutral. But they creating the most convincing impressions of hearing a real acoustic classical guitar playing than I'd experienced before. Just for such surprising experiences, I find the shows a delight.

It's like a car show: an engineer may have his idea of what the "right" and "best" car design may be, but I don't want to just a handful of models, there are tons of ways of designing cars, so I'd hope a car show would exhibit a great variety of cars. And people get kicks out of old car shows too even though they aren't SOTA. So for me it's not just chasing SOTA, but enjoying variety.
 
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