Properties of speakers that creates a large and precise soundstage

[Salt]

We see there is no? objective defintion of soundstage, 3D-imaging and that stuff?
If there was a definitvely implemented effect that should be reproduced (or not), this would make judging easier.
My pointing to this was not well understood here, so now (did some digging) some URL for testing (there's a clear announcment what effect is to be heard; have a look at the test-files):

https://audiophilemusic.io/portfolio/jazz-sampler-audiophile-test-vol-1/
https://audiophilemusic.io/portfolio/jazz-sampler-audiophile-test-vol-2/
https://audiophilemusic.io/portfolio/jazz-sampler-audiophile-test-volume-3/

Btw not all tracks from CD are represented

 

[audiofooled]

I think we first have to specify the dimensions of big height, width, depth or all three. As already mentioned there are some songs which extent the horizontal dimension like on the Roger Waters Album Amused to Death.

With this track I posted, it's far and beyond. As if it was made to transport you into another dimension.

But it's not only about the spatial quality, you can test your imaging precision with dynamic objects panning from far left to far right.

 

[test1223]

Apex Twin - Gwely Mernans

https://tidal.com/track/16025248

A track where a sound moves around the listener in the horizontal plane. So with stereo you can create a sound which is even perceived as coming from behind with the moving sound source trick. But I wouldn't call it a big soundstage.

I would struggle to name any track with a bigger vertical soundstage or a high amount of depth. Since this is very limited with stereo even with recordings which try to make it bigger.

 

[Suono]

they are examples of recordings that add nothing to the discussion

 

[test1223]

they are examples of recordings that add nothing to the discussion

I think it is useful if we post tracks and describe what you can hear. I am especially interested in an example of a recording with a big (bigger) soundstage in the vertical plane, if there are any at all?

 

[Bjorn]

If you want a big soundstage, you also generally need to have the speakers spaced wide apart. And in order to maintain the soundstage with much distance between them, the directivity needs to be broadband constant and also avoid beaming in the highs.

 

[dshreter]

Audiophile sound stage may not be well defined, but human sound localization has well characterized theories. A starting point would be to look at:

• What are the aspects of sound localization that are captured in a recording
• What are the aspects of speakers, playback system, and room that are necessary to retain those aspects from the recording
• Is this consistent with empirical evidence for how to design a system for excellent sound stage

 

[audiofooled]

I think it is useful if we post tracks and describe what you can hear. I am especially interested in an example of a recording with a big (bigger) soundstage in the vertical plane, if there are any at all?

This is a very good question. In stereo recordings we get ITD and ILD information and that is how we perceive panning of the stereo imaging.

To perceive elevation of sound source we use pinnae, that is, we process how our outer ear modifies the spectrum of the sound and this is how we get yet another, spectral shape cue. I have no idea how this works, or how to pinpoint the exact speaker design, setup, or room characteristic that makes this happen. On my system there are plenty of recordings which sound way higher than the loudspeakers are. I'm just guessing it has something to do with room acoustics. But what you hear may be very different from what I hear.

 

[test1223]

If you want a big soundstage, you also generally need to have the speakers spaced wide apart. And in order to maintain the soundstage with much distance between them, the directivity needs to be broadband constant and also avoid beaming in the highs.

From my experience with placing speakers wider apart. The soundstage only gets bigger in horizontal dimension not in vertical.

For bigger vertical dimension you need a loudspeaker with a less curved wavefront in vertical dimension like a line array or big horns.

 

[fpitas]

big horns

Yes, I get a vertical image (I guess it's called) that's lifelike.

 

[tmuikku]

If you want a big soundstage, you also generally need to have the speakers spaced wide apart. And in order to maintain the soundstage with much distance between them, the directivity needs to be broadband constant and also avoid beaming in the highs.

Jeah this is true when closer than audible critical distance, at least it is possible to listen to and come to same conclusion. When speaker directivity is rather constant, also no significant diffraction or any other coloration that would restrict listening axis speaker, one can then adjust base width and toe-in, use toe-in to enhance/tune the envelopment without sacrificing the direct sound balance. Even better if EQ is at hand to change frequency balance if needed. Sound changes quite a lot as base width is increased so that speakers are now more to sides. Ear shape and all could effect and balance of top end and could be rather individual, so some rising DI might work fine actually. Just speculating, but these are possible to listen and reason using the transition as reference sound and playing with base width and toe-in.

Like you say, distance between speakers, the base width, is important when listening closer than audible critical distance, as lateral early reflections do not help widen the image. Width follows basewidth of speakers, and is easily too narrow but also could be unnaturally wide. When speaker directivity is fine, so that direct sound is not compromized no matter what toe-in, it's not too hard to zone in to a suitable positioning (base width), that makes stereo image feel right to me, and I guess anyone could adjust for their liking. Prerequisite to listen all of it and reason with the perceptio is to know one is closer than the audible critical distance, which gives confidence for what one is hearing (referring to Griesinger work). Be true or not, end result is one is confidently listening and there is no confusion about it.

I'm not sure what basewidth, or angle, I have my speakers but it is wider than the usual equilateral triangle, speaker 30deg from median plane. Something past 45deg I feel too wide for some reason, so about there it is, between.

If listening beyond audible critical distance the base width can still be a problem, but not so much, less than 30deg doesn't seem too narrow, and I think it is due to strong lateral early reflections widening the image. Change toe-in for each, if needed, but nice coverage on the speakers and you don't have to.

 

[Tim Link]

That's quite an interesting hypothesis!

Perhaps it's worth mentioning some details that will sound perhaps nuttier but...

I've found I can manipulate the sound with the position of the diffusor. If I have it on top of my center channel, pushed more back, the sound stage is super deep, and vocals, drums etc, seem both further away but also sort of piled up on one another, sort of "glom together" in the center (e.g. if there are drums, vocals mixed to the center, a guitar right beside them). The soundstage is imense though, and the tone is gorgeous. If I slide it out even inches toward me, the imaging shifts and becomes more layered and 3D in space, so the vocals will shift free and forward of the drums, the drum snare will shift forward a bit and sound distinct in space from the bass drum, the guitar will shift perhaps more forward of the drums. And the tone will pick up more forwardness and "snap." With the diffusor pulled out closer, there is definitely the sense of the most dimensionally placed images, more solid images, and more "live" sound. Drums in particular are more like hearing the real thing, with snare, toms occuring in real, free space.
It's interesting that this affects all the sound, in other words if someone is playing a piano or guitar riff right up at the front of the left and right speaker, those also "jump more from the speaker in to the room" sounding more solid and energetic.

Honestly, when I get the right balance the effect can be pretty hair-raising.

You're not alone in experiencing the effect of a center diffuser on stereo imaging:

Center Image Manipulation Pt 1 - Acoustic Sciences Corporation

Center Image Manipulation Pt 1. ASC, the industry standard for Pro Audio & Studio, and HiFi. Manufacturer of the TubeTrap.

www.acousticsciences.com

I have not heard this effect yet myself as I've been distracted for about a year now by my 3 speaker center array. I don't claim to know all about how and why your center diffuser works, but Duke's hypothesis seems reasonable, as do your thoughts on it. I've always assumed it had something to do with getting a real sound to bounce right back at your ears from the center location. There's nothing quite like having an actual sound source of some kind from where the sound is supposed to be coming from. Greisinger also talked about that, you've got to have a real sound source at the intended location to sound really real, not just a phantom image.

 

[Westsounds]

I have a radiator in that position. It's a very musical radiator

I fooled a friend once He came around and an old fire that was fitted to the wall was dead centre between two speakers. Played a few tracks and the friend said, 'it sounds like that sound is coming directly from the fire'!

They were very small bookshelf speakers placed on stands, nothing overly fancy, but the effect seemed real! The speakers managed to disappear in space. And the lights were on and the fire was off

What we listen to with our hi-fi's is just effects boxes on the original sound. No two speakers sound identical, unless they were designed to of course, like the BBC monitor once was. Soundstage isn't real, but it can sometimes feel like it is with our brains playing tricks on us.

 

[tmuikku]

You're not alone in experiencing the effect of a center diffuser on stereo imaging:

Center Image Manipulation Pt 1 - Acoustic Sciences Corporation

Center Image Manipulation Pt 1. ASC, the industry standard for Pro Audio & Studio, and HiFi. Manufacturer of the TubeTrap.

www.acousticsciences.com

I have not heard this effect yet myself as I've been distracted for about a year now by my 3 speaker center array. I don't claim to know all about how and why your center diffuser works, but Duke's hypothesis seems reasonable, as do your thoughts on it. I've always assumed it had something to do with getting a real sound to bounce right back at your ears from the center location. There's nothing quite like having an actual sound source of some kind from where the sound is supposed to be coming from. Greisinger also talked about that, you've got to have a real sound source at the intended location to sound really real, not just a phantom image.

Heresy or not, but I think stereo sound on a normal living room would be great if listening close, having dedicated center speaker and additional speakers on the back with some DSP to enhance envelopment seems very reasonable system. But it's not too practical any more so takes time before trying, also two speaker stereo is nice

 

[Sokel]

I did a little experiment today out of curiosity (it's not the first time) and put the speakers in the small dimension but carefully made sure that I have the same triangle.
Room is not optimized for this but still,it's kind of fun.

So,about 3 meters triangle and what changes is the distance to the front wall which is 3,5 meters instead of 1,10 and the distance from the side walls which is about 2 meters instead of 4+.
(back wall is more than 5 meters so insignificant)

No listening impressions here,that is so personal that becomes useless.What is significant though is that the visuals alone strongly affects the whole thing.
And so is habit,it felt strange to listen like that,maybe some effects are more evident because of the side reflections but my feeling of being constrained in a smaller area made it uncomfortable (the habit) to the point I could not extract something useful.

Yes,depth seems to increase but I'm not sure if is the sound or the visuals having the back wall further away,for sure such a change affects sound but I'm not sure that even a big change balances the visuals which seem to be a powerful factor.

 

[MattHooper]

You're not alone in experiencing the effect of a center diffuser on stereo imaging:

Center Image Manipulation Pt 1 - Acoustic Sciences Corporation

Center Image Manipulation Pt 1. ASC, the industry standard for Pro Audio & Studio, and HiFi. Manufacturer of the TubeTrap.

www.acousticsciences.com

I have not heard this effect yet myself as I've been distracted for about a year now by my 3 speaker center array. I don't claim to know all about how and why your center diffuser works, but Duke's hypothesis seems reasonable, as do your thoughts on it. I've always assumed it had something to do with getting a real sound to bounce right back at your ears from the center location. There's nothing quite like having an actual sound source of some kind from where the sound is supposed to be coming from. Greisinger also talked about that, you've got to have a real sound source at the intended location to sound really real, not just a phantom image.

Amazing find, thanks! That is very interesting. Though if I understand correctly, they were actually placing the tube trap in front of the speakers to get the effect. (Or did they also hear the effect when it was behind the speakers, but moved towards them?)

I like using the diffusor on top of my center channel as it is very unobtrusive visually (especially when covered in black velvet), unlike how it sounds from the above experiments.

I've often noted the extra solidity factor when listening to my surround system, with the big center channel projecting sound as well. I've also tried playing that center channel along with my Joseph Audio floor standing speakers, using my AVR to convert to a L/C/R stereo presentation. It's far from perfect since my center channel sits low close to the ground, but it does give a tantalizing hint of that extra solidity.

But the diffusor goes quite a way to increasing that focus and solidity. Sonically we all know the illusion of a central vocal that, at least spatially, "could be coming from a speaker in between the L/R speakers." But I still find it tends to be weightless. With the diffusor a vocal can really sound solid, more like it's actually coming from center channel.

In my first two diffusor photos, with the diffusor on top adds solidity, image focus and depth. But if I place it like the second photo, on the floor in front of the center channel, the whole thing facing me, that really gives the most density to the sound, projects it forward, dum kicks, snares, trumpet, sax have a more "live, there in front of you" effect.
But it's a compromise because the images tend to congeal a bit together, loses a bit of depth, and for some reason the bass gets a bit too thick sounding.

 

[Tim Link]

Amazing find, thanks! That is very interesting. Though if I understand correctly, they were actually placing the tube trap in front of the speakers to get the effect. (Or did they also hear the effect when it was behind the speakers, but moved towards them?)

I like using the diffusor on top of my center channel as it is very unobtrusive visually (especially when covered in black velvet), unlike how it sounds from the above experiments.

I've often noted the extra solidity factor when listening to my surround system, with the big center channel projecting sound as well. I've also tried playing that center channel along with my Joseph Audio floor standing speakers, using my AVR to convert to a L/C/R stereo presentation. It's far from perfect since my center channel sits low close to the ground, but it does give a tantalizing hint of that extra solidity.

But the diffusor goes quite a way to increasing that focus and solidity. Sonically we all know the illusion of a central vocal that, at least spatially, "could be coming from a speaker in between the L/R speakers." But I still find it tends to be weightless. With the diffusor a vocal can really sound solid, more like it's actually coming from center channel.

In my first two diffusor photos, with the diffusor on top adds solidity, image focus and depth. But if I place it like the second photo, on the floor in front of the center channel, the whole thing facing me, that really gives the most density to the sound, projects it forward, dum kicks, snares, trumpet, sax have a more "live, there in front of you" effect.
But it's a compromise because the images tend to congeal a bit together, loses a bit of depth, and for some reason the bass gets a bit too thick sounding.

The TubeTrap can be well behind the speakers, against the wall. Moving it forward will change the effect. It can come all the way out in front of the speakers but I don't think that's where most people want it.
That's really interesting how the floor placement give such high density and is also affecting the bass. I've often experienced bass being stronger if I sit or lie on the floor, so I guess it's shooting more bass back at you when it's down there. In either position it's also interesting that you've got it on its side so it doesn't interfere with the screen. I usually give up hope on a center trap when people have a TV because I've always assumed it needs to be upright, but your experience is that it work sideways. I wonder if you could also put one above the screen?

 

[Pearljam5000]

How much does a wave guide has an impact on the soundstage?

 

[Westsounds]

How much does a wave guide has an impact on the soundstage?

Personally, I find some of the ones I've tried very directional. Not sure if this what they are scientifically but just more of an observation.

 

[RobL]

I think it is useful if we post tracks and describe what you can hear. I am especially interested in an example of a recording with a big (bigger) soundstage in the vertical plane, if there are any at all?

I posted it earlier but try “Two Weeks” by FKA twigs. The song isn’t great but there is a staccato effect that begins around 51 secs that sounds well above the rest of the soundstage on my speakers. It’s the only stereo recording that I’ve heard any sort of “height” in.