Subwoofers make all big speakers obsolete?

[Jon AA]

You seem to have a strange definition of "true sub-woofer"... strictly speaking a sub-woofer covers the range below the woofer on a full range speaker, and all full range speakers I have ever heard of go down well below 65Hz. (around 30Hz is typical for a full range... so a full octave below 65Hz)

I would say the definition everybody else has been using for several decades is "covers the range below the woofer on the speaker you actually have." Using your definition, the 10s of millions of pro audio subs sold over the years were all named incorrectly. The driver manufacturers all named the drivers incorrectly, all those THX guys need to find a dictionary....

In the title of the thread was "big speakers," you have many in the thread throwing smaller towers into that group because they're much bigger than bookshelves. You seem to have inserted "full range" into the conversation. I don't think anybody would disagree that true full range towers, if placement/DSP allowed them to be free of room/SBIR nulls in the bass will do just fine without a sub. At least in a small room. But I think the number of true full range towers that can fill a room of any decent size without running into distortion serious distortion/compression in the lower frequencies are pretty few and far between. Case in point:

The Kef R7 Meta have an in-room response down to 27Hz (-6db)

I think anybody expecting two 6 1/2" woofers to play bass with any authority at 30, 40 maybe even 50 Hz is going to be very disappointed unless it's strictly small room/low volume.

Look at a typical mass market subwoofer - eg: Klipsch R-100SW.

I don't think anybody who can afford true full range towers is going to think mating them with a $300 sub will be an improvement. There are plenty of very affordable subs that will easily surpass the capability of the JBL M2 at low frequencies. A lot of M2 users also use subs...

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

I made big speakers because I actually don't like subs and find them a pain to integrate. For whatever reason my brain prefers everything coming from one speaker, even if it's at the cost of bass evenness.

 

[EJ3]

Yes the M905 seems to be a full range speaker (hence its output overlaps the range covered by mass market so-called "subwoofers")

In the "old days" the terms Woofer, Quacker, and Tweeter implied the three drivers needed to cover the audible range for a full range speaker... (yep midrange = quacker )

And a proper full range 3 - way speaker would typically have the woofer kicking in somewhere between 200 and 300Hz... with plenty of examples out there of 4 way speakers with both a bass and lower bass driver... in the current mass market paradigm I assume that would imply that it has a built in subwoofer ?!

The current usage of the term "subwoofer" for speakers that don't even get close to reaching 20Hz let alone going below that, gets up my nose.... (in case it wasn't obvious!!)

I think that I have the nomenclature in the right order here: Low pass set at 80Hz, High pass set at 70 Hz right now. New to us (old 1968 home) is going to cause a massive rethought & experimentation of configuration starting Jan 1, 24.
Each of the pair of DQ M-905's has a bridged mono NAD 2200 with the Ohm on amp selector set at 4 Ohms
Each of the pair of Dual 4 Ohm voice coiled sub's has been configured to be a 4 Ohm speaker & has a single NAD 2200 running 2 channel mixed mono, on amp selector set at 4 Ohms.

 

[pablolie]

With what most folks (& manufacturers) call sub-woofers, reaching 60 Hz with authority & finesse doesn't happen. (maybe authority that doesn't sound correct)
I do not know the octave and I do not know at what frequency a real- sub woofer becomes a real sub woofer, I just know that most speakers that I have heard wont do justice to the low note on a bass guitar, much less anything lower (which is much).

Well I am a fan of Stanley Clarke and Marcus Miller and Gerald Veasley and Julian Vaughn and many other bass players... and have listened to all of them live. No 20Hz required sorry. That is distortion, not fidelity. It is horrible to demean their performances with lazy over-bass. And the real frequency of bass guitars and contrabass etc is amply documented.

 

[Andysu]

changing the other five screen wide JBL 12SR modified out for JBL 4673A

Magic checks rare JBL 4682 TCB sub

did this install just over non-stop 24 hrs
the JBL 4673A can play sub bass just as well as full range that i designed into this professional THX cinema it can do everything expect for kitchen sink

few no weeks later changed the JBL 2371 HF horns for JBL 2370A horns

if i want to i can play five screen mono , try doing that ? or centre mono and four screen sub bass with the other JBL subs below the stage and at back of the room , try doing that , i geared in so many cinema sound format codes

Sooty kitten crawls out of JBL 4645 port , amazing kitten can crawl though that port

4k laser projector w/s and scope just clear the oled direct view

i just subs LFE.1 on the surrounds with stormaudio elite mkIII 32 , so extra added bonus somewhere around x41 subs ?

 

[computer-audiophile]

In den „alten Zeiten“ implizierten die Begriffe Woofer, Quacker und Tweeter die drei Treiber, die erforderlich waren, um den hörbaren Bereich für einen Breitbandlautsprecher abzudecken ... (ja, Mitteltöner = Quacker )

And a proper full range 3 - way speaker would typically have the woofer kicking in somewhere between 200 and 300Hz... with plenty of examples out there of 4 way speakers with both a bass and lower bass driver... in the current mass market paradigm I assume that would imply that it has a built in subwoofer ?!

The current usage of the term "subwoofer" for speakers that don't even get close to reaching 20Hz let alone going below that, gets up my nose.... (in case it wasn't obvious!!)

Thank you, you bring very good objections. One could say that subwoofers in a stereo system are also partly a fad. In the old days, people really only knew complete speakers in the home.

Of course there are installations or special cases, which have also been discussed, where subwoofers are necessary. E.g. in PA systems, in home theaters, as a woofer supplement to ESL, etc.

(Maybe also for people who like an exaggerated bass or who listen to drum 'n' bass or other genres of subwoofer-destroying club music )

 

[computer-audiophile]

Well I am a fan of Stanley Clarke and Marcus Miller and Gerald Veasley and Julian Vaughn and many other bass players... and have listened to all of them live. No 20Hz required sorry. That is distortion, not fidelity. It is horrible to demean their performances with lazy over-bass. And the real frequency of bass guitars and contrabass etc is amply documented.

I played bass guitar myself for years, my bass speakers did not go down that extremely low like 20Hz.

I also frequently attended organ concerts in large churches or concert halls. The very low registers do not come across cleanly there either, but usually wobble unevenly drone through the room. Not a beautiful sound necessarily.

 

[Trell]

I don't think anybody would disagree that true full range towers, if placement/DSP allowed them to be free of room/SBIR nulls in the bass will do just fine without a sub.

They seem to just assume there won’t be any room/SBIR nulls in the bass, which in most residential homes is not the case.

Then there is the assumption that when a subwoofer is used it has to be wrongly setup with too much bass.

 

[sigbergaudio]

They seem to just assume there won’t be any room/SBIR nulls in the bass, which in most residential homes is not the case.

Then there is the assumption that when a subwoofer is used it has to be wrongly setup with too much bass.

Best way to properly integrate your subwoofer:

Do not high pass your speakers.
Select a random crossover point, and don't test any alternatives.
Place the subwoofer at a completely random location, preferrably well away from walls.
Do not spend any time on EQ of the subwoofer.
Turn the subwoofer gain way up until you can clearly hear it dominate the sound, and then leave it there.
Complain about the sound and only use it for movies.

 

[CapMan]

Best way to properly integrate your subwoofer:

Do not high pass your speakers.
Select a random crossover point, and don't test any alternatives.
Place the subwoofer at a completely random location, preferrably well away from walls.
Do not spend any time on EQ of the subwoofer.
Turn the subwoofer gain way up until you can clearly hear it dominate the sound, and then leave it there.
Complain about the sound and only use it for movies.

Lol

 

[computer-audiophile]

Report from the listening practice, when I was once again confronted with a big subwoofer in a short distance, about three weeks ago.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Because here was often the talk of big drums with their low tones. One of my favorite recordings in the context of Taiko is this one by Yim Hok Man. However, I don't know how low these frequencies actually are on this recording on YouTube. I have the CD and it is also on Deezer-HiFi. Tone quality seems to be better on those.

CHINA Hok-Man Yim: Poems of Thunder - Percussion

Hok-man Yim - album - 2000 - 8 Songs

www.deezer.com

 

[Trell]

Because here was often the talk of big drums with their low tones. One of my favorite recordings in the context of Taiko is this one by Yim Hok Man. However, I don't know how low these frequencies actually are on this recording on YouTube. I have the CD and it is also on Deezer-HiFi. Tone quality seems to be better on those.

CHINA Hok-Man Yim: Poems of Thunder - Percussion

Hok-man Yim - album - 2000 - 8 Songs

www.deezer.com

From playing while using RME DigiCheck spectral analyzer, but not so easy to catch a snapshot during playback.

 

[EJ3]

Well I am a fan of Stanley Clarke and Marcus Miller and Gerald Veasley and Julian Vaughn and many other bass players... and have listened to all of them live. No 20Hz required sorry. That is distortion, not fidelity. It is horrible to demean their performances with lazy over-bass. And the real frequency of bass guitars and contrabass etc is amply documented.

I am fans of the same. I do not know the size of your room but with a fireplace that can take 3 foot logs, a 96" couch with 2 end tables, three lazy boy size cloth & foam chairs, a 6 ft wide armoire, a couple of dining room table style chairs & a ceiling that slopes from 12ft to 8ft. a large padded rug & a curved bay window that 3 people could sit in, the room still almost looks sparse: I have only heard distortion if one tries to get things overly loud.
Now, I do not think that my subs have any substantial output below 26Hz, as supposedly the port in the cabs are tuned for 29Hz. In fact, I think that they don't get to that with any authority. A lady down the street has a Baby Grand piano (she's a piano teacher) in her living room & while my subs can reproduce the low note of that, which I have been told is 28Hz, they do not like to do it at anything more than a modest volume (which is fine by me, as reproducing concert levels inside the house is not usually my idea of relaxing and enjoying the stereo). I am fine with that. I was just pointing out that, according to that chart, in order to get the lowest notes of certain instruments, that you need the capability to get to below 30Hz. The instrument on the chart that surprised me was the Harp, with a low note of 30Hz.

 

[computer-audiophile]

To take up the subject of bass drums again - I've dealt with it more than once. In my opinion, they sound best when played with highly sensitive large diameter PA speakers, which is more or less their nature.

I once played the recording of post #432 in a clubhouse on the Seine near Paris through two ALTEC A7 VOTT at high volume in mid-field distance, and it came across nearly as realistic. Some listeners became quite pale, because they became unwell. It was at a weekend of Mélaudia.

 

[bodhi]

Best way to properly integrate your subwoofer:

Do not high pass your speakers.
Select a random crossover point, and don't test any alternatives.
Place the subwoofer at a completely random location, preferrably well away from walls.
Do not spend any time on EQ of the subwoofer.
Turn the subwoofer gain way up until you can clearly hear it dominate the sound, and then leave it there.
Complain about the sound and only use it for movies.

Sounds like my brothers setup. I recently gave him unused AntiMode to get rid of the boom, but I'm sure he won't even try it.

He has decided that he's not interested in useless hifi mumbo jumbo and doesn't want to hear about it either. All that is for golden ear people anyways etc

 

[Trell]

To take up the subject of bass drums again - I've dealt with it more than once. In my opinion, they sound best when played with highly sensitive large diameter PA speakers, which is more or less their nature.

I once played the recording of post #432 in a clubhouse on the Seine near Paris through two ALTEC A7 VOTT at high volume in mid-field distance, and it came across nearly as realistic. Some listeners became quite pale, because they became unwell. It was at a weekend of Mélaudia.

I assume that you stopped the playback at that time or reduced the volume significantly when you noticed people getting unwell.

 

[Jon AA]

No 20Hz required sorry. That is distortion, not fidelity.

If it's in the recording and your speakers reproduce it, that's accurate reproduction. By definition. If your contention is those who made the recording accidentally put distortion in the recording and you're going to fix it with speakers that can't reproduce the entire recording...good luck with that.

It is horrible to demean their performances with lazy over-bass.

You keep conflating extension with "over" bass. The two are unrelated. It's only that if you set it up that way. You can have extension all the way to 10 Hz and still tune it to be "lean" or "under-bass" if you choose.

 

[pablolie]

If it's in the recording and your speakers reproduce it ...

And indeed that is the big "if"...

I have nothing against full and accurate extension. Nor am I opposed to living forever. The big question is how realistic it is to achieve either.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I assume that you stopped the playback at that time or reduced the volume significantly when you noticed people getting unwell.

Yes, of course

Big drums like Taiko, which I love and have heard very often - I would have many pictures of it - do not work at all in small and medium rooms. It's just too dynamic and loud.
It's better that you can turn down the volume on the hi-fi.

BTW another nice experience: Years ago we had a garden party in our yard, where we invited a show taiko artist. (Own picture)