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What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?

SIY

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By the way, in the spirit of this thread, I would be interested to hear from other countries what is being done to become greener.
I am in charge of my university's research programs funded by New York's Department of Environmental Conservation. Their big interest is in increasing recycling of glass, reducing carbon emissions from processing, and creating new uses for glass waste.
 

monkeyboy

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The majority of climate scientist who aren't censored agree with the consensus view...
 

Willem

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Interesting. In the Netherlands we have a mandatory system of refunds on returned bottles for a number of drinks such as beer. You return them to any supermarket and they have machines that recognize what kind of bottle you are returning and how much refund you should get. The bottles are then cleaned and reused. We also have a system of bottle banks for the other bottles. Those are then crushed to be used as raw material for new glas.
We have a similar system for many plastic bottles and as of last month for beer and softdrink cans.
 

Willem

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The majority of climate scientist who aren't censored agree with the consensus view...
Evidence that this applies across the world? Come on, you live in an alternative universe without any experience of real science.
 

Gibsonian

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I think we should move away from fossil fuels too, but exactly what subsidies are you referring to?
They receive many tax breaks, free or dirt cheap US land use. It's a combination of direct and indirect subsidy that keeps these boys rich as all get out, but it is estimated in the billions on a quite mature and profitable industry. I think they are compensated well. Easy to search this on the net if you are looking for more. They have alot of money and use it to control Congress and their lawmaking.
 

SIY

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They receive many tax breaks, free or dirt cheap US land use. It's a combination of direct and indirect subsidy that keeps these boys rich as all get out, but it is estimated in the billions on a quite mature and profitable industry. I think they are compensated well. Easy to search this on the net if you are looking for more. They have alot of money and use it to control Congress and their lawmaking.
It's a good thing they don't subsidize that Iowa corn-to-ethanol production.
 

Ornette

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Interesting. In the Netherlands we have a mandatory system of refunds on returned bottles for a number of drinks such as beer. You return them to any supermarket and they have machines that recognize what kind of bottle you are returning and how much refund you should get. The bottles are then cleaned and reused. We also have a system of bottle banks for the other bottles. Those are then crushed to be used as raw material for new glas.
We have a similar system for many plastic bottles and as of last month for beer and softdrink cans.
In California and some other US states, some plastic drink bottles are assessed a refundable (upon recycling) fee. Many CA municipalities provide curbside recycling of plastic and glass bottles, and metal cans. Glass and metal are not subject to the refundable fees in CA.

EDIT: I stand corrected. Glass and aluminum beverage containers ALSO carry a 5 cent refundable deposit in CA.

Regarding the effects of burning fossil fuels on climate change: even if there were no causal link (highly unlikely based on the data, IMO), it would still make sense to transition to solar (and other renewable) forms of energy. At the current rate of consumption, estimated global petroleum reserves would be depleted this century! Not to mention the positive benefits on health (less air pollution) and the environment (no oil spills) conferred by renewable energy vs. burning fossil fuels. The associated energy storage issues will be solved with ingenuity and political will, and out of necessity. I can't believe the inevitability of this transition is even in question at this point.
 

SIY

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Interesting. In the Netherlands we have a mandatory system of refunds on returned bottles for a number of drinks such as beer. You return them to any supermarket and they have machines that recognize what kind of bottle you are returning and how much refund you should get. The bottles are then cleaned and reused. We also have a system of bottle banks for the other bottles. Those are then crushed to be used as raw material for new glas.
We have a similar system for many plastic bottles and as of last month for beer and softdrink cans.
Cleaning bottles has its own set of challenges and environmental impact. Ditto re-melting glass cullet; this is a particular problem that my own research focuses on and it is not nearly as easy as it sounds.
 

Willem

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Cleaning bottles has its own set of challenges and environmental impact. Ditto re-melting glass cullet; this is a particular problem that my own research focuses on and it is not nearly as easy as it sounds.
I am afraid I am not an engineer, so I have nothing to add here other than to report that it is done on a large scale in the Netherlands. Perhaps also to reduce the landfill problem in a small country such as ours.
 

Gibsonian

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It's a good thing they don't subsidize that Iowa corn-to-ethanol production.
Not sure why you are saying this to me??? Of course I am aware of this. I think we should invest in what makes sense for the future, whatever the best ideas are. I don't think oil needs subsidies, at all, and they own too much political sway. Don't know enough about ethanol and corn production, but am thinking it might be a loser long term.
 

SIY

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Not sure why you are saying this to me???
I noted your location. :D

I used to go to Dewitt weekly and would drive past huge plants in Clinton that emitted a very characteristic aroma.
 

Gibsonian

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I noted your location. :D

I used to go to Dewitt weekly and would drive past huge plants in Clinton that emitted a very characteristic aroma.
Farmers used to be rich and poor and in between. Talk about a subsidized trade! They're all rich now from what I can tell and who I know that are farmers. It has changed alot in the years since the 80's and early 90's. I think they are on a bit of a welfare myself.
 

SIY

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I am afraid I am not an engineer, so I have nothing to add here other than to report that it is done on a large scale in the Netherlands. Perhaps also to reduce the landfill problem in a small country such as ours.
It's done at a large scale here as well, but the process is fraught with difficulties and needs a LOT of work. Selfishly, this is a good thing because there's a lot of grant money flowing to look at these issues and the chemistry and engineering are incredibly challenging and interesting.
 

Doodski

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LoL... I was about 19 years old and working washing dishes in a Chinese restaurant and the old old Chinese lady had tuberculosis and she gave it to me because we worked so close together. I went to the doctor and he was chain smoking Rothmans and I was near choking on the 2nd hand smoke. He cared little to nothing about the smoke and sent me on my way with some free Otrivin samples. I was shaking my head in that he had the hospital all smoked up outside his office and in his office it was like fog. That would not occur today. sigh*
 

Willem

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The parallel is relevant. With smoking too many remained in denial in the face of incontrovertible evidence. In that case too industry waged a costly campaign to confuse the issue.
 

Timcognito

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The parallel is relevant. With smoking too many remained in denial in the face of incontrovertible evidence. In that case too industry waged a costly campaign to confuse the issue.
Not too much different from the energy companies about climate change and renewable energy.
 

levimax

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As was said before, there are few things in science about which the view is more unanymous. So, to disagree takes very good credentials/arguments/facts. I see none - just spurious question marks to throw a spanner in the works.
Consensus is not science.... in fact it is almost the opposite of science. Compared to "real" science which you can use to build a plane there is no "proof" of anything when it comes to climate theories. Any model you came up with that showed rising temperatures would "fit the data" of raising temperatures (which has been going on for centuries) but that does not prove what the cause is and certainly does not prove what the solution is. We are gambling trillions of dollars based on very limited information. Calling skeptics "anti-science" is not really fair. I would call pop science / theory beauty contest science as "anti-science".
 

Timcognito

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We are gambling trillions of dollars based on very limited information.
Something that comes from the sun for free and gets distributed to the end user at by an existing infrastructure to homes vs something that is limited resource and requires tons of processing and transportation doesn't seem like much of a gamble.
 
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