$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Ra1zel]

Or the speaker sounds far smaller, less impressive, the tonality will be revealed as very artificial, rough, homogenized or whatever.

I was once impressed with MBL speakers and other kind of omnis but the more I listened I found exactly that, no matter the music MBL caused everything to sound samey

 

[Ra1zel]

Also if anyone is wondering how does the polish guy custom open baffle speakers mentioned earlier look like here's the system

 

[Adi777]

Also if anyone is wondering how does the polish guy custom open baffle speakers mentioned earlier look like here's the system

You listened? Impressive. Too bad he didn't post any measurements. I don't know why.

 

[FrantzM]

I see this mentioned often, and I've postes multiple times but never gotten a straight answer. Where does this idea come from that the 8C isn't loud enough? I listen at 18ft, and I rarely go past 60/100 on my receiver. Erin measured 105dB at 4m, and a D&D support rep told me he listens at 6m without issue.

At 18ft I still prefer to add subs, but that's more my music tastes. I do feel subs are almost unavoidable in a typical domestic environment, not sure if that's part of your plan

What is most suprising is that that 105 dB was at 35 Hz! ... That is loud, well, perhaps not in a 30 x 50 x 20 ft, (WxHxL) room.

Peace.

 

[Burning Sounds]

Holes cut in a plank of wood, five minutes with a router and you are an ‘open baffle ‘ loudspeaker designer.
Keith

A bit of light reading for you, Keith. https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Fitz/considerations.htm

Actually, why don't you take your router and cut out the upper baffle of the LX521 - preferably in Panzerholz, please.

 

[Burning Sounds]

Correct, 8C very, very good, but need more SPL. Similar situation with the Linkwitz 521. Outstanding loudspeaker, but ultimately I am looking for higher SPL. And also correct, to my ears 8C much better than Grimm (with much better pricing!)

And your comments on dipole very interesting and I am not at all surprised given my own experience

Completely agree regarding the 8C and LX521. I've heard the 8C several times at shows, in both medium size and small rooms. What has always impressed me is their ability to work well no matter the room size (within reason of course).

The LX521 is a bit more picky (I have owned them for 8+ years). They need to be 1.5-2m from the front wall and 1m from the sidewalls and in a room with a minimum size of 65cu.m. And they need a solid floor. I've taken them to several local hifi meetings and as long the basic room requirements above can be met they will perform very well.

I should mention they cost me about £2000 to build. Add in another £3500 for a decent multichannel DAC (or the Linkwitz analogue x-over) and multichannel amp and they become outstanding VFM. Also agree that they would probably sound a bit stressed to play at the levels the OP wants in his large room.

 

[ahofer]

Also if anyone is wondering how does the polish guy custom open baffle speakers mentioned earlier look like here's the system
View attachment 280805

View attachment 280806

Is that the world’s most monotonous pipe organ on the front wall? Or is that some absorber/diffuser I don’t know about?

 

[MKR]

@MKR, did you ever get to hear the M2's?

And I had a thought - given what you liked at the show, maybe you should try to hear the Eminent Technology LFT-8c:

Eminent Technology: home

Rotary Woofer Installation at The Show Denver.

[Note: this link is mis-named, should be 8cwoofer update.]

Not very good-looking, but the sound may appeal to you. If they don't cost enough, Eminent Technology would be happy to sell you a $20K subwoofer:

Eminent Technology: home

Seriously, the LFT-8 has a lot of potential. I think a custom double height version might still be available.

Sadly no M2s yet, definitely not at the show. These things are pink unicorns, impossible to find. Likely will have to find gracious owner to let me audition or travel to California and visit JBL directly. Haven’t fully ruled them out, but going to take some extra effort to track down a pair.

As to Eminent, I am aware of these, but never seriously considered as I am concerned about SPL capability. But if the opportunity presents it self to audition them, I will certainly do so! On that rotary sub, very interest, but given the way it needs to be installed, likely a no go. But will investigate.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[MKR]

I had the same speakers (Thiel) from 1994-2018. Only replaced them because they broke and they became harder to repair. The replacements are still going strong, although I've subsequently built a second system in my weekend house as well as a desktop system.

Always had a fondness for Thiel, bummer they went out of business

 

[MKR]

Completely agree regarding the 8C and LX521. I've heard the 8C several times at shows, in both medium size and small rooms. What has always impressed me is their ability to work well no matter the room size (within reason of course).

The LX521 is a bit more picky (I have owned them for 8+ years). They need to be 1.5-2m from the front wall and 1m from the sidewalls and in a room with a minimum size of 65cu.m. And they need a solid floor. I've taken them to several local hifi meetings and as long the basic room requirements above can be met they will perform very well.

I should mention they cost me about £2000 to build. Add in another £3500 for a decent multichannel DAC (or the Linkwitz analogue x-over) and multichannel amp and they become outstanding VFM. Also agree that they would probably sound a bit stressed to play at the levels the OP wants in his large room.

Give me a larger 8C and I will be seriously interested

The LX521 DIY option has to be one of the greatest VFM in all of HEA! If one has the means to assemble a pair, it is a no brainer assuming the listening space is appropriate.

 

[steve59]

I know I use the term 'end game' to explain to regular folk my hifi addiction. How can a sane person spend as much on a stereo as a car? End game seems to soften the scorn on friend and family's faces when I admit my budget. At one time I had 4 different pair of 'end game' speakers in my listening room and all I really learned was passive speakers really are a crapshoot! I have the Kef Blades, but I now believe I could have kept either the Persona 7f, Salon 2, or Usher Be20 DMD speakers and focused my efforts on components and placement to achieve satisfying results. The Salon 2 still sets the bar at the price, IMO(still haven't heard the NS5000). If we can agree the law of diminishing returns is real and we're paying big money for small improvements then the differences in components audibility becomes significant also, right? Now add music preference and room decor and the choice is even more tricky. Last year at Axpona I paid more attention to the speaker/component combo's that sounded right and placed no judgement on poor sounding rooms because my experience has shown me that a good sounding room is so much more than a quality pair of speakers.

 

[MKR]

I'm glad you and a few other members got something out of it. It's tough to write something that isn't going to sound too "audiophoolish" without any objectivity to back up what you experience.


That brings up my only major complaint with the show. There was no good way to know what speakers were in what rooms. It was some smaller vendor or amplifier/streamer manufacturer that I don't believe listed anything about KEF in the handbook or website, but put it on the tag outside their door. I saw a photo online somewhere that one room also had the R7's, but I never found it. I didn't care whatsoever about streamers, DAC, Amps, wires, etc... and maybe that's why I got the cold shoulder from a few rooms.

I really wish I had made it to the JBL room with the 698's and L100. Oh well.


I wonder if the gap would close even further once you upgrade to room correction and add a couple of subs. I certainly get a noticeable gain in headroom when switching between the full range "direct stereo" mode without room correction, and "Auto stereo" with HPF, room correction, and subs. I'd like to know what you've eyed up for subs, but maybe that's muddying the topic of the thread. I do think a pair of the Arendal 2V, perlistens, or maybe rythmik subwoofers would fill the void nicely. I cross my 590's at 80Hz, and get almost zero driver movement and less vibration from the crappy grilles (blutack solves the high SPL rattles btw).

I forgot to mention I did hear the JBL 698s. It was brief but what I heard was very good.

As to the 590s, in my current listening space they do not need subs! More than enough LF output. And note I do not have any grille vibration whatsoever, they are solid and silent, no resonance.

 

[MKR]

I see this mentioned often, and I've postes multiple times but never gotten a straight answer. Where does this idea come from that the 8C isn't loud enough? I listen at 18ft, and I rarely go past 60/100 on my receiver. Erin measured 105dB at 4m, and a D&D support rep told me he listens at 6m without issue.

At 18ft I still prefer to add subs, but that's more my music tastes. I do feel subs are almost unavoidable in a typical domestic environment, not sure if that's part of your plan

This is what I think some are missing or forgetting from my previous posts … the mains should not need subs, this is my goal. Maybe for theater I would have subs for LFE. But for music listening, best presentation is true full range mains that run down to 20Hz min at high SPL. This is my opinion and preference, I am sure others may disagree and that is OK

 

[MKR]

I was once impressed with MBL speakers and other kind of omnis but the more I listened I found exactly that, no matter the music MBL caused everything to sound samey

Yup, exactly

 

[MKR]

I know I use the term 'end game' to explain to regular folk my hifi addiction. How can a sane person spend as much on a stereo as a car? End game seems to soften the scorn on friend and family's faces when I admit my budget. At one time I had 4 different pair of 'end game' speakers in my listening room and all I really learned was passive speakers really are a crapshoot! I have the Kef Blades, but I now believe I could have kept either the Persona 7f, Salon 2, or Usher Be20 DMD speakers and focused my efforts on components and placement to achieve satisfying results. The Salon 2 still sets the bar at the price, IMO(still haven't heard the NS5000). If we can agree the law of diminishing returns is real and we're paying big money for small improvements then the differences in components audibility becomes significant also, right? Now add music preference and room decor and the choice is even more tricky. Last year at Axpona I paid more attention to the speaker/component combo's that sounded right and placed no judgement on poor sounding rooms because my experience has shown me that a good sounding room is so much more than a quality pair of speakers.

Well said and agreed. But I will say with the new generation of actives with correction and cardioid bass, room is mostly irrelevant … this is changing the game to be sure. Again those 8Cs at AXPONA in a crappy room with zero treatment and shoved up against glass windows were incredible.

 

[ahofer]

Always had a fondness for Thiel, bummer they went out of business

Me too, but this gives me pause (https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs36-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2), Perhaps too close a measurement.

Getting farther away from the loudspeaker will likely result in better integration of the individual drivers' outputs, making the suckout disappear. This is even more likely because the CS3.6 uses first-order slopes; the degree of overlap between drivers is much greater than with higher-order systems. Incidentally, the CS3.6 had a slightly lower HF energy output with the grille on—as Thiel recommends the loudspeaker be used.

 

[steve59]

Well said and agreed. But I will say with the new generation of actives with correction and cardioid bass, room is mostly irrelevant … this is changing the game to be sure. Again those 8Cs at AXPONA in a crappy room with zero treatment and shoved up against glass windows were incredible.

There's something to be said for active DSP based systems. My 8k se's just need a bigger room than my 3400 cu/ft space.

 

[MattHooper]

I was once impressed with MBL speakers and other kind of omnis but the more I listened I found exactly that, no matter the music MBL caused everything to sound samey

I had the opposite experience. I found the MBLs could produce more "suprisingness" with each different track than most speakers. Though for me this was in terms of instrumental timbre, which I found less homogenized on the MBLs vs most other speakers. (Having owned them, I was also able to dial them in quite well to my room, vs less controlled encounters "in the wild.").

I do understand why some get a "samey" quality in terms of the spatial presentation, though.

 

[MattHooper]

Always had a fondness for Thiel, bummer they went out of business

I had the Thiel 3.7s for a while, Jim's last flagship speaker. I still think it's the best speaker I've owned (for my tastes) but since it was a bit too big for my room aesthetically/ergonomically I needed to replace it. I went on a speaker search similar in scope to the one you are on, which included Revel speakers, Paradigm Persona, Kii Audio, Focal, Magico etc. I couldn't find anything that I felt sounded better overall. The Paradigm and Revel speakers actually sounded closest to the Thiels. The Paradigm were too aggressive in the high frequencies though. But the Revel Performa speakers had the same time of evenness through the whole spectrum that I was used to with the Thiels, which really impressed me. But I still preferred the Thiels.

I ended up downsizing from the 3.7s to the slightly smaller 2.7s, which solved my problem. (But in my speaker search I also fell in love with the Joseph Perspectives sound, so I eventually grabbed those as well. I like switching between the Thiels and the Joseph speakers. Keeps the upgrade itch at bay by switching things up).

 

[Laserjock]

I wonder if any of the Philharmonic Audio choices would be contenders.?