Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[fpitas]

Either way, it's a simple fact of "physics" that a broken-in cable is superior.

 

[egellings]

Either way, it's a simple fact of "physics" that a broken-in cable is superior.

What would be physically different about two identical cables, one broken in and the other not? Would some measurable attribute show up the difference? Which one?

 

[fpitas]

What would be physically different about two identical cables, one broken in and the other not? Would some measurable attribute show up the difference? Which one?

It's so fundamentally obvious it needs no explanation. At least that's what I read on the internet

 

[fpitas]

You forgot the sarcasm emoji!



Uh ....... I suspect that Poe's law applies here.

Jim

Gosh...was I being sarcastic?

 

[simplywyn]

I've fallen for this scam again. Or at least nearly.

I was going to spend $1600 on this brand new ladder DAC

LADDER Schumann Digital to Analog Convertor (DAC)

shenzhenaudio.com: professional headphone, earphone, amplifier, dac, decoder, hifi player, cable supermarket. you will find good price here.

shenzhenaudio.com

Amazing reviews!

So before I did it, I decided to do a bit of testing on my own. I have SMSL D200, SMSL SU-9n, and SMSL M400, All DACS of difference ranges, oh and I also have topping d90, and a Denafrips. That's quite the range right?

So I plugged the M400 in, wow amazing sounds so good! then I plugged the SU-9n in, omg that horrid sound I heard it right away! Okay, settled, definitely worth buying more expensive DAC.

But wait a minute, when I turned the Su-9n up, the differences went away, so I decided to switch the gain on my amp to high for SU-9 and low for M400 (like I had before), and lo and behold, the differences disappeared. It was just a gain mismatch...

Seriously, wtf is going on here, I can't tell one from another, I simply don't like the Su-9 because it sounds cheap.

I've replugged in the M400 - much better, I don't get it!

 

[Mart68]

I've fallen for this scam again. Or at least nearly.

I was going to spend $1600 on this brand new ladder DAC

LADDER Schumann Digital to Analog Convertor (DAC)

shenzhenaudio.com: professional headphone, earphone, amplifier, dac, decoder, hifi player, cable supermarket. you will find good price here.

shenzhenaudio.com

Amazing reviews!

So before I did it, I decided to do a bit of testing on my own. I have SMSL D200, SMSL SU-9n, and SMSL M400, All DACS of difference ranges, oh and I also have topping d90, and a Denafrips. That's quite the range right?

So I plugged the M400 in, wow amazing sounds so good! then I plugged the SU-9n in, omg that horrid sound I heard it right away! Okay, settled, definitely worth buying more expensive DAC.

But wait a minute, when I turned the Su-9n up, the differences went away, so I decided to switch the gain on my amp to high for SU-9 and low for M400 (like I had before), and lo and behold, the differences disappeared. It was just a gain mismatch...

Seriously, wtf is going on here, I can't tell one from another, I simply don't like the Su-9 because it sounds cheap.

I've replugged in the M400 - much better, I don't get it!

I've been there. The differences are either in the mind down to something mundane like level matching or maybe a gain or impedance matching issue.

Not the 'Innate sonic characteristics of the DAC chip' or something equally improbable.

I once thought I heard cables burning in but it turned out to be loose connections on the crossovers.

 

[ribonucleic]

Just registered to share my two cents (non-inflation adjusted).

Credentials: My audiophile rig consists of a laptop pushing bits through a generic USB cable to a Schiit Fulla driving a Sennheiser 6XX. I can not hear frequencies above 14kHz. I can not hear the difference between FLAC and V0 MP3. And that's when I'm listening critically, which I never do in normal use.

If I could afford them, I would be strongly tempted to get a Benchmark DAC3 L and HPA4, even with the expectation that I would hear no difference between them and the Schiit Fulla. And for the same reason that I prefer keeping my music files in FLAC. There would be an uncontestable psychological pleasure when musing upon their quality. (I can't hear the difference in FLAC but I can feel it.)

Consider that a Rolex or Patek Philippe does not tell time any better than a $150 Casio G-Shock with radio sync. In fact, they are worse. But watch fancy involves the appreciation of other things in addition to timekeeping. And I think few would say that Patek Philippe owners have purchased "snake oil".

Now the excellences of the Benchmark products are scientifically measurable even if I can't hear them. The < 0.0003 % THD+N of the AHB2 amp is probably 1,000 times smaller than I can perceive but but it's Science! all the same and a very cool piece of engineering.

What then of, say, Nordost Odin Gold speaker cables?

Nordost has developed an innovative termination process that eases the transition from cable to connector over several stages. This process minimizes the conversion points of conductors, eliminating overcrowding and creating orderly and precise connection points with the connectors. By decreasing the impedance introduced in standard termination practices, this innovative technique allows perfect mass-matching to occur between the conductor and connector. The methodical and natural transition contributes to the smooth auditory experience only available with Nordost’s Odin Gold cables.

I take it for granted that no human to have ever walked the face of the Earth could hear any difference between them and Amazon Basic 14 gauge. I also assume that none of these claims can be (or at least have been) scientifically measured. This puts them in the "snake oil" category for me at least.

However, when the proud Odin Gold owner thinks about how the cables' "perfect mass-matching" is creating a "smooth auditory experience" unavailable to the less wealthy and discerning, he is happy.

And happiness is also not scientifically measurable.

 

[MattHooper]

Just registered to share my two cents (non-inflation adjusted).

Credentials: My audiophile rig consists of a laptop pushing bits through a generic USB cable to a Schiit Fulla driving a Sennheiser 6XX. I can not hear frequencies above 14kHz. I can not hear the difference between FLAC and V0 MP3. And that's when I'm listening critically, which I never do in normal use.

If I could afford them, I would be strongly tempted to get a Benchmark DAC3 L and HPA4, even with the expectation that I would hear no difference between them and the Schiit Fulla. And for the same reason that I prefer keeping my music files in FLAC. There would be an uncontestable psychological pleasure when musing upon their quality. (I can't hear the difference in FLAC but I can feel it.)

Consider that a Rolex or Patek Philippe does not tell time any better than a $150 Casio G-Shock with radio sync. In fact, they are worse. But watch fancy involves the appreciation of other things in addition to timekeeping. And I think few would say that Patek Philippe owners have purchased "snake oil".

Now the excellences of the Benchmark products are scientifically measurable even if I can't hear them. The < 0.0003 % THD+N of the AHB2 amp is probably 1,000 times smaller than I can perceive but but it's Science! all the same and a very cool piece of engineering.

What then of, say, Nordost Odin Gold speaker cables?



I take it for granted that no human to have ever walked the face of the Earth could hear any difference between them and Amazon Basic 14 gauge. I also assume that none of these claims can be (or at least have been) scientifically measured. This puts them in the "snake oil" category for me at least.

However, when the proud Odin Gold owner thinks about how the cables' "perfect mass-matching" is creating a "smooth auditory experience" unavailable to the less wealthy and discerning, he is happy.

Yes, but "happy" in the way someone shopping for a diamond ring for his fiance is unaware he was sold a fake diamond ring. In his ignorance he may be just as happy as if his $6,000 bought him the real thing. But most people would care if their hard earned money went to a fake product or not, and would have liked to know the difference between a fake diamond and a real one so they weren't duped.

Countering snake oil claims is putting out information for those people who care about not getting duped. So they can make knowledgeable decisions as to where to spend their money. (And it's fine to spend it on Nordost cables, if you understand what you are getting).

And happiness is also not scientifically measurable.

Actually, happiness research is one of the growing areas in social/cognitive science at this time.

 

[ribonucleic]

... most people would care if their hard earned money went to a fake product or not, and would have liked to know the difference between a fake diamond and a real one so they weren't duped.

That's an interesting choice of comparison.

People pay more for natural diamonds than lab grown ones, even though they're physically identical, because they attribute some hazy glamour to the former. Likewise, people pay 200 times as much for an Audioquest USB cable as a generic one, even though they perform identically, because something in the marketing pitch has stimulated their pleasure centers. (Or maybe they think dates will be impressed when they boast of the Carbon-Based 3-Layer Noise-Dissipation System.)

I propose that what high-end audio consumers are purchasing is only peripherally related to accurate sound reproduction. The "diamond" they are buying is the feeling of being an audiophile. And feelings are never "fake", even if they are poorly informed.

I might even argue that the more woo-woo the audio brand's claims become, the more effectively they evoke that feeling.

 

[simplywyn]

I have a SMLS Su-9n, and a SMSL M400

I've kept trying to plugin the SU-9n, but can't stand the sound, M400 sounds far better, the SU-9n sounds... weird (like crappy, everything feels too bold)

What's the deal? This forum tells me I can't hear the difference between DACs but after constant testing, I clearly can.

 

[ribonucleic]

I have a SMLS Su-9n, and a SMSL M400

I've kept trying to plugin the SU-9n, but can't stand the sound, M400 sounds far better, the SU-9n sounds... weird (like crappy, everything feels too bold)

What's the deal? This forum tells me I can't hear the difference between DACs but after constant testing, I clearly can.

You’re a Senior Member and the ink is still wet on my registration. But without ABX testing, there’s nothing clear about it.

I confess to being puzzled by a complaint that music could sound “too bold”.

 

[MAB]

I have a SMLS Su-9n, and a SMSL M400

I've kept trying to plugin the SU-9n, but can't stand the sound, M400 sounds far better, the SU-9n sounds... weird (like crappy, everything feels too bold)

What's the deal? This forum tells me I can't hear the difference between DACs but after constant testing, I clearly can.

No, this forum tells you to conduct a proper test to tell the differences. 'trying to plugin' one component vs. another is sighted, and will end up with a whole host of emotional confirmations even if the two units are ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL. Constructing proper tests and comparisons is the point of this forum, the SINAD measurements are for free.

Of course, if you tell me that 'trying to plugin' actually involves a third unsighted party doing the plugin part, or some other way of properly obscuring the units, and with level matching, and a good statistical sample, then fine. But I am guessing that plugin means you swapping your gear around believing you hear differences.

 

[JayGilb]

No, this forum tells you to conduct a proper test to tell the differences.

How many threads here actually contain a "recipe" for a proper test ? Amir had a nice video talking about testing, but a list of either required or recommended gear I have not seen. (it's probably posted on ASR).

I would love to see ASR purchase a good ABX box, a DVM and a few sets of quality cables, a decent travel case and have it shipped around to members willing to video the setup and post the results.
Proper setup instructions would be included and this would allow more testing to be performed and the results posted

I would be willing to toss in a few dollars to help pay for the gear and shipping changes.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

That's an interesting choice of comparison.

People pay more for natural diamonds than lab grown ones, even though they're physically identical, because they attribute some hazy glamour to the former. Likewise, people pay 200 times as much for an Audioquest USB cable as a generic one, even though they perform identically, because something in the marketing pitch has stimulated their pleasure centers. (Or maybe they think dates will be impressed when they boast of the Carbon-Based 3-Layer Noise-Dissipation System.)

I propose that what high-end audio consumers are purchasing is only peripherally related to accurate sound reproduction. The "diamond" they are buying is the feeling of being an audiophile. And feelings are never "fake", even if they are poorly informed.

I might even argue that the more woo-woo the audio brand's claims become, the more effectively they evoke that feeling.

It is one of my regrets in life that I failed to come up with a product that I can sell legally, without breaking any laws, for 100 times what it costs me to make.

I wonder how many people here have drunk bottled water recently. Last time I looked, sales of bottled still water in the USA were $18 billion. That's about $50 per person per year. Dasani was launched in the UK by Coca Cola and was found to contain a carcinogen, so was 3,000 times more expensive and less safe than what comes out of the wall. It is a totally unnecessary product in many countries. We haven't bought a bottle of still water for many years, although we do have a lot of colourful water bottles.

I don't know what motivates anyone to buy high-end audio, but as long as the product works (there is usually legal consumer protection), there is no fraud in the legal sense and it is no more fraudulent in the non-legal sense than your next bottle of Dasani or Evian.

 

[simplywyn]

No, this forum tells you to conduct a proper test to tell the differences. 'trying to plugin' one component vs. another is sighted, and will end up with a whole host of emotional confirmations even if the two units are ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL. Constructing proper tests and comparisons is the point of this forum, the SINAD measurements are for free.

Of course, if you tell me that 'trying to plugin' actually involves a third unsighted party doing the plugin part, or some other way of properly obscuring the units, and with level matching, and a good statistical sample, then fine. But I am guessing that plugin means you swapping your gear around believing you hear differences.

Yeah but I've just plugged it in, and it's pretty clear I don't like the Su-9n, the sounds are harsh. i've just tried to leave it in for days, and still find it annoying (almost forgotten that I switched it)

Once I switch it back, sounds feel far better in general.

 

[Multicore]

I have a SMLS Su-9n, and a SMSL M400

I've kept trying to plugin the SU-9n, but can't stand the sound, M400 sounds far better, the SU-9n sounds... weird (like crappy, everything feels too bold)

What's the deal? This forum tells me I can't hear the difference between DACs but after constant testing, I clearly can.

One or the other unit must be defective or not working properly the way you have it hooked up.

 

[kemmler3D]

I have a SMLS Su-9n, and a SMSL M400

I've kept trying to plugin the SU-9n, but can't stand the sound, M400 sounds far better, the SU-9n sounds... weird (like crappy, everything feels too bold)

What's the deal? This forum tells me I can't hear the difference between DACs but after constant testing, I clearly can.

The most likely cause is usually a level mismatch between the SU-9n and M400. If one is a tad louder than the other, it will sound different in a way that doesn't read as "louder". My understanding is you need to match output voltage to +/- 0.1 dB with a high frequency multimeter to be sure.

If you are using them with headphones, then it's also possible there is some kind of impedance mismatch causing a frequency response difference between the amps, this is less likely but possible.

One of them could be broken and causing distortion that way. We all know that QC and reliability aren't perfect everywhere always.

And there is maybe the remote chance that the OS is causing something funny with resampling on one DAC but not the other. Or, if you have an issue with a source, there could be (somehow, no idea how) extreme jitter getting into the signal that one DAC isn't handling right.

Those are what come to mind at first, but if there is something clearly audible, it should also be measurable... if you have the equipment for it, it would be interesting to see what comes out.

 

[simplywyn]

The most likely cause is usually a level mismatch between the SU-9n and M400. If one is a tad louder than the other, it will sound different in a way that doesn't read as "louder". My understanding is you need to match output voltage to +/- 0.1 dB with a high frequency multimeter to be sure.

If you are using them with headphones, then it's also possible there is some kind of impedance mismatch causing a frequency response difference between the amps, this is less likely but possible.

One of them could be broken and causing distortion that way. We all know that QC and reliability aren't perfect everywhere always.

And there is maybe the remote chance that the OS is causing something funny with resampling on one DAC but not the other. Or, if you have an issue with a source, there could be (somehow, no idea how) extreme jitter getting into the signal that one DAC isn't handling right.

Those are what come to mind at first, but if there is something clearly audible, it should also be measurable... if you have the equipment for it, it would be interesting to see what comes out.

Honestly, I've done the mismatch and tried a bunch, again... there is a slight difference (M400 has more detail, Su-9n seems to be more forward)

I think there's a bit more to the story that hasn't fully been figured out.

 

[MattHooper]

I propose that what high-end audio consumers are purchasing is only peripherally related to accurate sound reproduction. The "diamond" they are buying is the feeling of being an audiophile. And feelings are never "fake", even if they are poorly informed.

I might even argue that the more woo-woo the audio brand's claims become, the more effectively they evoke that feeling.

I disagree, at least as I understand your point to be that audiophiles buying expensive cables are not so much motivated by caring about the sound differences than feeling.

If that were so then cable discussions on typical audiophile sites wouldn't be such a reliable source of acrimony. The cable-believing audiophile could just say "so what if they aren't more accurate/better sound, I like the feel of buying them.

What really happens is the "subjectivist" audiophiles truly believe the cables are altering the sound of systems for the better. That's why they constantly claim that if skeptics "can't" hear these "obvious" differences the skeptic is either "deaf" or "their system is substandard and incapable of resolving the differences between cables." So they very fervently care that the money they are paying is producing better sound, and truly believe it.

I've proposed that the best explanation here is not "one side is using feelings, the other logic and evidence" but rather it's an epistemic divide. Both the cable-believers and cable-deniers care their beliefs are true, it's just that they are using opposing methods of evaluating equipment; the subjectivist is favouring his subjective perception above all (and hence is all the more susceptable to believing impressions due to perceptual bias), where the cable skeptic tends to be appealing to more objective types of evidence - engineering/electrical theory and practice, measurements, listening tests controlling for variables like bias, etc.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

I disagree, at least as I understand your point to be that audiophiles buying expensive cables are not so much motivated by caring about the sound differences than feeling.

If that were so then cable discussions on typical audiophile sites wouldn't be such a reliable source of acrimony. The cable-believing audiophile could just say "so what if they aren't more accurate/better sound, I like the feel of buying them.

What really happens is the "subjectivist" audiophiles truly believe the cables are altering the sound of systems for the better. That's why they constantly claim that if skeptics "can't" hear these "obvious" differences the skeptic is either "deaf" or "their system is substandard and incapable of resolving the differences between cables." So they very fervently care that the money they are paying is producing better sound, and truly believe it.

I've proposed that the best explanation here is not "one side is using feelings, the other logic and evidence" but rather it's an epistemic divide. Both the cable-believers and cable-deniers care their beliefs are true, it's just that they are using opposing methods of evaluating equipment; the subjectivist is favouring his subjective perception above all (and hence is all the more susceptable to believing impressions due to perceptual bias), where the cable skeptic tends to be appealing to more objective types of evidence - engineering/electrical theory and practice, measurements, listening tests controlling for variables like bias, etc.

I'm a cable subjectivist and don't buy expensive cables because when I've compared them I've generally not heard a difference. I suspect I'm in the quiet majority of audiophiles who aren't obsessed with cables, as some audiophiles clearly are. My main considerations are a good tight connection, flexibility and the amount of insulation, depending on the purpose of the cable.