ATC speakers / Monitors

[goat76]

You can simply trust makers. According to ATC people their active speakers are always better. Follow their recommendation.

Yes, I do believe the active version is better, but not that much that you should avoid the passive ones at all costs.

 

[DSJR]

I like to know under what circumstances you have heard active vs passive SCM40s. Was it a demo with the intention to show how much better the active version is, and if so, was the passive 40s given an equally good amplifier, an equally good setup, and so on..?

I mean, I don't doubt some of the aspects of the active ones make them sound better than the passive version, But I find it hard to believe it's such a big difference as a "night and day" difference.

Firstly, I have chapter and verse from Billy himself and also a more descriptive comparison from one of the sales managers once (not Ashley J) who explained the consistency issues that can occur with this dome mid driver, run almost wide open (too much or too little hand applied doping affects the frequency response of said driver) and used actively with steep slopes I gather helps as there are adjustments which can assist in 'blending' the transition from bass to mid driver. I believe Stereoplay has done response plots of both which do seem to show the passives as 'lumpy.' You can't do this in passive mode and I maintain the passive option on the three ways is to get far eastern sales where I gather status enhancement and high price tags rule over objective reasoning.

The rest is subjective, but I found the active 40A's driven by their CD-preamp box do seem to offer some semblance of depth in the soundstage and reproduction of acoustic and reverb in a recording comes through relatively unimpeded (I've no doubt that modern pro alternatives also do this at least as well). The passives I heard just a few weeks ago sounded awful, dead, uninvolving and far too 'dry' in tone on a known track and just didn't seem to integrate at all. Usually, I can sit down with a set of ATC's (fairly recently, 11's [yes, even these babies], 19A's and 100ASL's), heave a sigh of relief and just 'let go' into the music played but these 40's just sounded flat between the speakers and rather thick and muddled in the midrange. I've heard some 70ASL's do this too at a show dem and I felt the source component and their expensive preamp which I'd owned for a few years may not have helped (I said it was a subjective vibe although I'm not alone here) and have mentioned this a while ago up the pages here how easy it can be for an ATC three way model to sound muted and rather 'dead' in reproduction quality. Going passive just makes it worse, especially with some of the expensive high end status-enhancing confections used with these.

So yeah, I'd suggest that it CAN BE a night and day difference between 40's and 40A's and I don't think it's just pre conceived ideas either (maybe it is, but it's irrelevent to me now). To row the bloody things along means plenty of power and even one of the current class D wonder-amps at a grand or two may not be enough.

Gawd, I've somehow GOT to hear some KH420's which aren't hugely more than 40A's (£500 or so more in the UK from Thomann and others?). The Dynaudio Focus 50's in the same room a couple of weeks before and driven wirelessly from the store NAS using Roon I think, sounded significantly better too I recall.


Going back to Jurassic times, this isn't the same as comparing active and passive Linn or Naim speakers, which seemed almost hobbled in passive form (so they could more easily sell an 'aktkiv' upgrade), but to me, the ATC actives just sounded more 'open' and easier to hear 'into' a particular mix - less effort needed to enjoy what the musicians were doing and how they tried to harmonise and relate to each other. To me, that's important and even my Harbeth SHL5's here can do it to a certain extent and they're so seamless from bottom to top, even if the reproduction is a bit too 'nice' compared to the pro alternatives around these days (maybe they need a bigger power amp - now there's a thought )

 

[TheBatsEar]

Buying new would be 11k€ and the Ferengi say never to buy retail, who am i to disagree?

So used it is then:
There is a pair of SCM40 in Gouda, Netherlands, less than 4 hours drive there and back for 3500€ with original packaging.
Or i could get a pair of SCM40A in Zinasco, Italy, 20 hours drive there and back (crossing the Alps and Switzerland) for 5400€.

Things like money and travel time matter to me. I could get a MiniDSP Flex 8 and three NC252MP amps for the difference and still have some left.

 

[Chrise36]

Buying new would be 11k€ and the Ferengi say never to buy retail, who am i to disagree?

So used it is then:
There is a pair of SCM40 in Gouda, Netherlands, less than 4 hours drive there and back for 3500€ with original packaging.
Or i could get a pair of SCM40A in Zinasco, Italy, 20 hours drive there and back (crossing the Alps and Switzerland) for 5400€.

Things like money and travel time matter to me. I could get a MiniDSP Flex 8 and three NC252MP amps for the difference and still have some left.

For almost 6000 there are used 50 towers. The 40 with sub is a better deal add the minidsp later if you believe there is something better you can achieve.

 

[Chrise36]

Avoid the 252 for the tweeters in any case.

 

[WillBrink]

Sadly not for any of the newer ATCs.

Is there really nobody in the US using recent ATCs?

I'm using ATC SCM 19v2. Excellent speakers that need a sub for full range sound.

 

[Berlin]

Coincidentally I took an active and a passive pair in p/ex at more or less the same time, I really didn’t think there was that much, if any difference switching back and forth, same drivers, same enclosure…
Keith

I agree - made the same experience...

 

[TheBatsEar]

Avoid the 252 for the tweeters in any case.

Had one here, hooked up to my pre-out on the Yamaha A-S1200 and to the SCM19v2. If i turned the volume up to max, i could hear a faint hiss with the Yamahas power amp, not with the NC252MP module. In fact the noise was so low, i could hear the faintest clicking switching the source on the Yamaha with the NC252MP.

Mind you, this was with my ear on the tweeter at full volume and no signal. I sent them back, because i couldn't hear a difference with normal music.

This leads me to believe that the NC252MP are really good, in fact even better than my Yamahas power amp, for any frequency range.

I'm using ATC SCM 19v2. Excellent speakers that need a sub for full range sound.

Great! How far from @amirm Klippel are you?
BTW, small European living room with stone walls here, they do a bit of bass by themselves in that environment.

 

[WillBrink]

You can simply trust makers. According to ATC people their active speakers are always better. Follow their recommendation.

I have the SCM 19 v2 with a Velodyne sub. If I was not invested in gear, I'd go with the SCM 40A without hesitations. It makes perfect sense to me why amplification matched the drivers and enclosure will be superior, and ATC has been at that a long time.

 

[WillBrink]

The rest is subjective, but I found the active 40A's driven by their CD-preamp box do seem to offer some semblance of depth in the soundstage and reproduction of acoustic and reverb in a recording comes through relatively unimpeded (I've no doubt that modern pro alternatives also do this at least as well). The passives I heard just a few weeks ago sounded awful, dead, uninvolving and far too 'dry' in tone on a known track and just didn't seem to integrate at all. Usually, I can sit down with a set of ATC's (fairly recently, 11's [yes, even these babies], 19A's and 100ASL's), heave a sigh of relief and just 'let go' into the music played but these 40's just sounded flat between the speakers and rather thick and muddled in the midrange. I've heard some 70ASL's do this too at a show dem and I felt the source component and their expensive preamp which I'd owned for a few years may not have helped (I said it was a subjective vibe although I'm not alone here) and have mentioned this a while ago up the pages here how easy it can be for an ATC three way model to sound muted and rather 'dead' in reproduction quality. Going passive just makes it worse, especially with some of the expensive high end status-enhancing confections used with these.

So yeah, I'd suggest that it CAN BE a night and day difference between 40's and 40A's and I don't think it's just pre conceived ideas either (maybe it is, but it's irrelevent to me now). To row the bloody things along means plenty of power and even one of the current class D wonder-amps at a grand or two may not be enough.

Not run the numbers, but I wonder if one may be better off with the SCM20ASL Pro and a good sub or two vs the SCM 40A $ wise. I am very happy with the SCM 19v2 plus sub, but am looking to go to actives some day.

 

[WillBrink]

Great! How far from @amirm Klippel are you?
BTW, small European living room with stone walls here, they do a bit of bass by themselves in that environment.

I'm in FL. Where is @amirm located? I know people mail him speakers to test, but at close to 50lbs and big box, gonna be $ to do that.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Surely the ATC boys just split the signal and feed it to some amps, then into the speakers. As far as i can tell they don't use DSP or anything advanced to split or massage the signals into shape. Maybe you could do a better job with a measurement microphone and some DSP skill?

Besides, the SCM20ASL looks not very nice, compared to the SCM19 v2. Also only two ways, don't you want to have the big mid dome?

I'm in FL. Where is @amirm located? I know people mail him speakers to test, but at close to 50lbs and big box, gonna be $ to do that.

Seattle. Just send him a message, if you need money for shipping/packaging/fuel just ask here, i can help, maybe others can too.
@hardisj (Erins Audio Corner) has a Klippel too, he is in North Alabama.

 

[DSJR]

Not run the numbers, but I wonder if one may be better off with the SCM20ASL Pro and a good sub or two vs the SCM 40A $ wise. I am very happy with the SCM 19v2 plus sub, but am looking to go to actives some day.

If you can accomodate twin subs (preferably), then possibly. It does appear that the 19's and 20SL's have an elevated upper mid (I believe something to do with being sat on or adjacent to a meter bridge plus it seemed to be the fashion twenty years ago).

Things really have moved on though and KH310's really do look to be a more than valid alternative

 

[goat76]

Firstly, I have chapter and verse from Billy himself and also a more descriptive comparison from one of the sales managers once (not Ashley J) who explained the consistency issues that can occur with this dome mid driver, run almost wide open (too much or too little hand applied doping affects the frequency response of said driver) and used actively with steep slopes I gather helps as there are adjustments which can assist in 'blending' the transition from bass to mid driver. I believe Stereoplay has done response plots of both which do seem to show the passives as 'lumpy.' You can't do this in passive mode and I maintain the passive option on the three ways is to get far eastern sales where I gather status enhancement and high price tags rule over objective reasoning.

The rest is subjective, but I found the active 40A's driven by their CD-preamp box do seem to offer some semblance of depth in the soundstage and reproduction of acoustic and reverb in a recording comes through relatively unimpeded (I've no doubt that modern pro alternatives also do this at least as well). The passives I heard just a few weeks ago sounded awful, dead, uninvolving and far too 'dry' in tone on a known track and just didn't seem to integrate at all. Usually, I can sit down with a set of ATC's (fairly recently, 11's [yes, even these babies], 19A's and 100ASL's), heave a sigh of relief and just 'let go' into the music played but these 40's just sounded flat between the speakers and rather thick and muddled in the midrange. I've heard some 70ASL's do this too at a show dem and I felt the source component and their expensive preamp which I'd owned for a few years may not have helped (I said it was a subjective vibe although I'm not alone here) and have mentioned this a while ago up the pages here how easy it can be for an ATC three way model to sound muted and rather 'dead' in reproduction quality. Going passive just makes it worse, especially with some of the expensive high end status-enhancing confections used with these.

So yeah, I'd suggest that it CAN BE a night and day difference between 40's and 40A's and I don't think it's just pre conceived ideas either (maybe it is, but it's irrelevent to me now). To row the bloody things along means plenty of power and even one of the current class D wonder-amps at a grand or two may not be enough.

Gawd, I've somehow GOT to hear some KH420's which aren't hugely more than 40A's (£500 or so more in the UK from Thomann and others?). The Dynaudio Focus 50's in the same room a couple of weeks before and driven wirelessly from the store NAS using Roon I think, sounded significantly better too I recall.


Going back to Jurassic times, this isn't the same as comparing active and passive Linn or Naim speakers, which seemed almost hobbled in passive form (so they could more easily sell an 'aktkiv' upgrade), but to me, the ATC actives just sounded more 'open' and easier to hear 'into' a particular mix - less effort needed to enjoy what the musicians were doing and how they tried to harmonise and relate to each other. To me, that's important and even my Harbeth SHL5's here can do it to a certain extent and they're so seamless from bottom to top, even if the reproduction is a bit too 'nice' compared to the pro alternatives around these days (maybe they need a bigger power amp - now there's a thought )

I think there was something seriously wrong with the setup of the passive 40s in the demo you heard, "flat between the speakers and rather thick and muddled in the midrange" is far from how my speakers sound. If I lived closer to you I would have invited you for a better demo of the passive SCM40s.

 

[WillBrink]

I think there was something seriously wrong with the setup of the passive 40s in the demo you heard, "flat between the speakers and rather thick and muddled in the midrange" is far from how my speakers sound. If I lived closer to you I would have invited you for a better demo of the passive SCM40s.

It's interesting that I have heard subjectivly speaking contrasting opinions of the 40 passives, never heard anything negative about the 19s, which some feel is the sweet spot in the line up for $ value. Only complaint is they only get to 55Hz and obviously need a good sub for full range sound.

 

[Chrise36]

Had one here, hooked up to my pre-out on the Yamaha A-S1200 and to the SCM19v2. If i turned the volume up to max, i could hear a faint hiss with the Yamahas power amp, not with the NC252MP module. In fact the noise was so low, i could hear the faintest clicking switching the source on the Yamaha with the NC252MP.

Mind you, this was with my ear on the tweeter at full volume and no signal. I sent them back, because i couldn't hear a difference with normal music.

This leads me to believe that the NC252MP are really good, in fact even better than my Yamahas power amp, for any frequency range.


Great! How far from @amirm Klippel are you?
BTW, small European living room with stone walls here, they do a bit of bass by themselves in that environment.

Did you try main direct in on the Yamaha?

 

[goat76]

It's interesting that I have heard subjectivly speaking contrasting opinions of the 40 passives, never heard anything negative about the 19s, which some feel is the sweet spot in the line up for $ value. Only complaint is they only get to 55Hz and obviously need a good sub for full range sound.

I’ve heard good things about the 19s, but according to Ben Lilly at ATC, the 40s (both active and passive) are the speakers that are considered by many to be the absolute sweet spot in their speaker lineup. The 50s and up are according to him obviously better speakers but if all things are considered like price, size, and performance, the 40s is probably their most valuable speaker.

Fast forward to 30:14 in this interview and you get his own words on that.

 

[Chrise36]

Had one here, hooked up to my pre-out on the Yamaha A-S1200 and to the SCM19v2. If i turned the volume up to max, i could hear a faint hiss with the Yamahas power amp, not with the NC252MP module. In fact the noise was so low, i could hear the faintest clicking switching the source on the Yamaha with the NC252MP.

Mind you, this was with my ear on the tweeter at full volume and no signal. I sent them back, because i couldn't hear a difference with normal music.

This leads me to believe that the NC252MP are really good, in fact even better than my Yamahas power amp, for any frequency range.


Great! How far from @amirm Klippel are you?
BTW, small European living room with stone walls here, they do a bit of bass by themselves in that environment.

The hypex has high frequency noise: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/01/measurements-hypex-ncore-nc252mp.html?m=1
A good class ab will be better.

 

[WillBrink]

I’ve heard good things about the 19s, but according to Ben Lilly at ATC, the 40s (both active and passive) are the speakers that are considered by many to be the absolute sweet spot in their speaker lineup. The 50s and up are according to him obviously better speakers but if all things are considered like price, size, and performance, the 40s is probably their most valuable speaker.

Fast forward to 30:14 in this interview and you get his own words on that.

A major reason I go the 19s was his review and statement they were the best speakers he'd heard to date in his system. As mentioned, I'd get the ATC SCM40 A happily if not already invested in gear, and may yet still. Having said that, as I mentioned, heard mixed opinions of the 40 passives, not heard a negative for the 19s, and some do view the 19s the sweet spot for the $. Never heard anything but raves for the 40 actives.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Did you try main direct in on the Yamaha?

I did not, have no preamp to hook up to it and it didn't cross my mind either.

Switching between the Yamahas power amp and the NC252MP, it became pretty clear that there was a little bit of audible noise when listened to at the tweeter and at full volume of the preamp. The source clearly was the Yamahas power amp section.

That also means that the noise from the Yamaha preamp section is lower than that of the Yamaha power amp, and possibly that of the NC252MP power amp.
But again, gave the NC252MP back, if you can't hear it with music, whats the point.

The hypex has high frequency noise: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/01/measurements-hypex-ncore-nc252mp.html?m=1
A good class ab will be better.

In my (simple) test above, the NC252MP showed lower noise than the Yamaha A-S1200 power amp, which some would consider a good class A/B.
I think it has high frequency noise that is so low that it doesn't matter to anyone listening with it to music.